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10-22-2011, 08:59 PM   #451
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
You are exactly correct here. This is the conundrum Pentax faces if they are looking at Full Frame body. Not criticizing, but I would say 80% of the Full Frame replies I read here have a whole lot to do with using legacy lenses. I don't think that's what people who buy Canon and Nikon Full Frames do but maybe I'm wrong.
I can only speak for myself here, but I am excited about the prospect of using my old glass as it was intended and having f/1.4 actually behaving as f/1.4 again, and 24mm actually being wide again. It's really fun mounting a 40 year old lens on a state-of-the-art body, I get all kinds of looks from Canon guys like I'm crazy, until I show them the sharp clear results I get. But there are gaping holes in my FF collection that will need to be filled with new lenses. Also none of my old lenses have auto focus, or weather sealing, so again I'll be buying new stuff when it becomes available, but in the mean time I've got something to hold me over.

So what about other folks who have extensive collections? Maybe a few will be content with what they have, but have you ever heard of lens buying addiction? I think those people are actually more likely to buy multiple new lenses.

Quick shift is a nice new feature, weather sealing, focus limiters, and SDM if they can improve the QC a bit would all be welcome changes to my old film era glass. I do think they'd sell more FF lenses if they'd put an aperture ring back on (I still shoot film from time to time, and it's nice having some of the focal length options that I didn't has when I was growing up, but without an A-ring, I'm sunk).

10-22-2011, 09:36 PM   #452
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No extensive collection of lenses - just practical ones mostly AF actually, and most of the AF lenses are full-frame...
As much as the K-5 is a fine piece of kit, the added bonus of FF capability, with its fine viewfinder and versatile resolution/IQ is worth serious contemplation. I'm with Jay and maxfield on this - FF is an appropriate bridge between APS-C and MF offerings from Pentax for more reasons than one.

Last edited by Ash; 10-23-2011 at 02:12 AM. Reason: spelling
10-22-2011, 10:27 PM   #453
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QuoteOriginally posted by Monobod Quote
I already own a Pentax full frame slr. It is the Z1-P of course. I just need to fill it up with Fugi transparency film. It works a treat, great shallow depth of field and wonderful out of focus transitions.

Just add a decent scanner and I'm in business.....for a lot less money too of course.

I know it's not quite the same as a dslr, but a reasonable compromise whilst waiting.
Except for the thousands of dollars you put on counter for developing (If you can still find someone to do it)

Greetings
10-22-2011, 10:39 PM   #454
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
I can only speak for myself here, but I am excited about the prospect of using my old glass as it was intended and having f/1.4 actually behaving as f/1.4 again, and 24mm actually being wide again. It's really fun mounting a 40 year old lens on a state-of-the-art body, I get all kinds of looks from Canon guys like I'm crazy, until I show them the sharp clear results I get. But there are gaping holes in my FF collection that will need to be filled with new lenses. Also none of my old lenses have auto focus, or weather sealing, so again I'll be buying new stuff when it becomes available, but in the mean time I've got something to hold me over.

....
You just summarized first-hand what I was about to describe - The subset of folks who are drawn to a FF body because it will allow them to shoot all their old lenses in the way they want to shoot them still bring a net gain to Pentax. The body will show a profit at any price point it arrives at (within reason,) and the people who buy a new FF body and only shoot only old glass on it forever after will be a very small minority - the great majority of folks brought in to FF by the 'old glass' motivation will eventually and occasionally treat themselves to that new FA 135 f/2.8 limited, or that new FA 24-120 f/4, or the new 35 f/2 or 50 f/1.8, etc....

In all my time shooting Nikon and knowing folks who shot Nikon before I did, I've never met in person or encountered online anyone who bought into FF who did not buy at least one new lens for their FF camera. I'm sure they're out there... but I haven't met any.

"I want a FF camera that can shoot all my old glass" would be fine with Pentax. They know it's unlikely you'll stick to that. LBA lives in the hearts of us all.

.

10-22-2011, 10:45 PM   #455
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FF DSLR is not totally new to Pentax.

Making a FF DSLR isn't a new thing for Pentax. It originally intended that it's debut DSLR would be FF with the MZ-D. Alas, technology let it a down and the sensor was plagued with problems, so it had to abandon that idea. It waited a few years and then did what everyone else did and introduced an APS-C camera. For most manufacturers, APS-C was meant to be an interim measure until FF sensors became easier and more affordable to produce. A while back I read that an FF sensor would now only cost about $100 more than a cropped sensor. This means that FF cameras are practical to produce, except APS-C cameras have become quite entrenched, with many users considering them "good enough" despite some drawbacks.

Personally I'm not interested in mirrorless or SLT FF. In fact, putting a pellicle mirror in front of a great FF sensor seems something of a retrograde step. I guess there might be a market for a FF camera with an EVF and perhaps Sony will explore it with an SLT model and maybe a FF NEX as well? Hopefully for Sony's sake, it also does an OVF camera as well. Even so, I'd still much rather buy Pentax FF than a Sony, but definitely with an OVF. I can't promise I'd buy a whole range of new Pentax FF lenses. I'd like to explore some of the old ones too. But I would buy at least a couple of new lenses. I'm sure Pentax 645 owners who have bought a 645D have done much the same thing.

Last edited by markac; 10-22-2011 at 10:51 PM.
10-22-2011, 10:50 PM   #456
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
You are exactly correct here. This is the conundrum Pentax faces if they are looking at Full Frame body. Not criticizing, but I would say 80% of the Full Frame replies I read here have a whole lot to do with using legacy lenses. I don't think that's what people who buy Canon and Nikon Full Frames do but maybe I'm wrong.

I still think Pentax can do this right but it won't happen in the short term. They will need to have a plan for lenses first and some kind of gimmick to make the camera stand out. They aren't going to make money selling to existing customers like me with a bunch of old A, M, and FA lenses. They would lose money there.

However.....if they would be so kind as to release an MX sized Full Frame, I'd buy it.
Hi
I see the big legacy lens base here as a benefit. If you have got them just add the cam now and then when you realise the old lenses are not quite up to par graduate into newer lenses as they become available. People like to upgrade, I do. Gives everybody a bit of extra time, Pentax to develop new lenses and consumers for the next tax refund cheque. But you have got to make a start. If one sees legacy lenses as a stumbling block Pentax would never develop anything.

Greetings
10-22-2011, 11:12 PM   #457
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QuoteOriginally posted by Schraubstock Quote
Hi
I see the big legacy lens base here as a benefit. If you have got them just add the cam now and then when you realise the old lenses are not quite up to par graduate into newer lenses as they become available. People like to upgrade, I do. Gives everybody a bit of extra time, Pentax to develop new lenses and consumers for the next tax refund cheque. But you have got to make a start. If one sees legacy lenses as a stumbling block Pentax would never develop anything.

Greetings
The question is will the legacy lenses produce acceptable results on a FF digital sensor. The current FA LTDs that are being used on APS-C bodies are showing noticeable softness around the edges, but on a FF sensor that is going to be even worse. Almost all of Canon's and Nikon's FF lenses have been updated in the last 10 years with the exception of a couple of excellent primes. All of the zooms have updated. There will be certain legacy lenses that works very well on a new FF, but I think most will show considerable weakness. Digital sensors are much more sensitive than film when it comes to light striking at an off angle.

The money is in the lenses, not the bodies. Bodies have a short life span. A good lens design can stay in production for 10+ years and will go up in value. Pentax does not make any money off of legacy glass. They won't design a new lens mount, but a new line of D-FA* lenses would be needed. I actually like 24-70mm, 85mm, & 135mm on an APS-C body. If Pentax is going to go down this path they really need to improve SDM and the QC of the lenses.
10-22-2011, 11:29 PM   #458
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The question is will the legacy lenses produce acceptable results on a FF digital sensor. The current FA LTDs that are being used on APS-C bodies are showing noticeable softness around the edges, but on a FF sensor that is going to be even worse. Almost all of Canon's and Nikon's FF lenses have been updated in the last 10 years with the exception of a couple of excellent primes. All of the zooms have updated. There will be certain legacy lenses that works very well on a new FF, but I think most will show considerable weakness. Digital sensors are much more sensitive than film when it comes to light striking at an off angle.
I can almost guarantee the FA Limiteds will hold up brilliantly. One thing to keep in mind is that at the higher apertures, the edges rarely matter, because the subjects and situations you're shooting wide-open don't require edge sharpness (usually). Truthfully, the disparity between center--->edge contributes to the pop of the central subject.

If you're shooting a landscape with the 31ltd, you're probably at f/8 or smaller and the edges look great - even on FF.

QuoteQuote:
... but a new line of D-FA* lenses would be needed. I actually like 24-70mm, 85mm, & 135mm on an APS-C body. If Pentax is going to go down this path they really need to improve SDM and the QC of the lenses.
Agreed, SDM replacement is almost mandatory to make this work. And that benefits aps-c directly too.

"New" FF lenses I wouldn't be surprised to see over a period of time:

Premium: 16-35 f/2.8, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 f/2.8, 120-300 f/4, 600 f/4 or f/5.6, 500 f/4 or 5.6, 400 f/4, 300 f/2.8, 200 f/2, 135 f/1.8

Mid Tier: 20 f/2.8, 17-35 f/4, 24-105 f/4, 70-200 f4, 135 f/2.8 (maybe Limited),

Entry: 24 f/2.8, 35 f/2, 50 f/1.8, some variable-aperture zooms like Nikon's new 28-300 FF zoom


Last edited by jsherman999; 10-22-2011 at 11:44 PM.
10-22-2011, 11:50 PM   #459
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
"New" FF lenses I wouldn't be surprised to see over a period of time:

Premium: 16-35 f/2.8, 24-70 f/2.8, 70-200 f/2.8, 120-300 f/4, 600 f/4 or f/5.6, 500 f/4 or 5.6, 400 f/4, 300 f/2.8, 200 f/2, 135 f/1.8

Mid Tier: 20 f/2.8, 17-35 f/4, 24-105 f/4, 70-200 f4, 135 f/2.8 (maybe Limited),

Entry: 24 f/2.8, 35 f/2, 50 f/1.8, some variable-aperture zooms like Nikon's new 28-300 FF zoom
1. So many fantasies... It's the list of lenses for 8-10 years ahead.
Who will produce so many lenses and where?
Anyway, there is right idea in your post. First - Pentax should start to develop new FF lenses and start to produce it. Together with new FF camera or before...^)



2. I don't undestand why some of Pentaxian can't understand that Pentax is the smallest photo brand. It's just a bit bigger than Leica.
No resources for MF, FF, mirrorless and APS-C together. No resources for world-wide advertising.

Pentax can develop only 1 new lens per year for MF. And 2-3 lenses at most for APS-C. In better case.
Ricoh is not the leader of photomarket too...Ricoh is even weaker than Pentax.

Why do you think that Pentax could produce the same lenses as Canon/Nikon produce?
Who will buy this lenses? 5000 people for whole world?


3. Pentax is the photo brand for amateurs and advanced amateurs and no any chances to be another...
Ricoh/Pentax are not Canon/Nikon. It's biggest illusion, myth that if Pentax produce FF, it will be big success and big sales automatically.

This FF camera could have some success if it will be something special or very cheap. Not like C/N/S.
Imagine - Amateur Mirrorless FF with full WR + line of small fast pancakes + WR fast primes.
It's just alternative...Any copy of present FF DSLR won't have good sales.

Between Canon, Nikon, Sony and Pentax FF lines of cameras and lenses, the most users choose C and N. 80-90%.
The market of FF cameras are not above 7% of whole DSLR market.
Even Canon 1Dx will be produced by rather limited quantity.

But Canon is almost 45-50% of DSLR market. And almost 50% of FF market.

Who will buy Pentax if it will be the same as C/N/S cameras?

It's no any sense to make FF just for some Pentax fans. It must be the camera for everyone.

Last edited by ogl; 10-23-2011 at 05:05 AM.
10-22-2011, 11:51 PM   #460
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
This is the conundrum Pentax faces if they are looking at Full Frame body. Not criticizing, but I would say 80% of the Full Frame replies I read here have a whole lot to do with using legacy lenses.
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The current FA LTDs that are being used on APS-C bodies are showing noticeable softness around the edges, but on a FF sensor that is going to be even worse.

Well, legacy lenses are even less of a problem for Pentax then, aren't they. As I said, try them if you must, but then buy better stuff.

Greetings
10-23-2011, 12:10 AM   #461
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
You are exactly correct here. This is the conundrum Pentax faces if they are looking at Full Frame body. Not criticizing, but I would say 80% of the Full Frame replies I read here have a whole lot to do with using legacy lenses. I don't think that's what people who buy Canon and Nikon Full Frames do but maybe I'm wrong.
You know... Pentax is actually in a better position than Canon and Nikon with regards to new AF lenses sales. Anyone investing in old Pentax glass knows that good quality AF lenses are few and far between on the 2nd hand market. In the case of Nikon and Canon releasing a new FF camera I'd say it's actually more a problem for them than for Pentax, as there is lots of used Canon/Nikon glass available. So by bringing out a FF model Pentax has actually more incentive to sell new AF glass, despite the fact that many will use it with old non-AF glass. And please make it mirrorless indeed, as this will attract even more people to the brand. Mirrorless = you can mount anything you like by using adapters. (And of course the K-mount to mirrorless adapter needs to be WR, have screwdrive AF and SDM as well). Such a camera will absolutely take the market by storm.

I can only speak for myself, but if a FF camera materializes I certainly would want a great set of FF WR lenses to take advantage of the weather sealing. But I'd still mount my old glass of course, nothing beats 'the look'. A Takumar standard lens from 1957 on fullframe (in this case on my 5D) is certainly more than capable.

10-23-2011, 12:10 AM   #462
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
As much as the K-5 is a fine piece of kit, the add bonus of FF capability, with its fine viewfinder and versatile resolution/IQ is worth serious contemplation. I'm with Jay and maxfield on this - FF is an appropriate bridge between APS-C and MF offerings from Pentax for more reasons than one.
My thoughts exactly. A lot of people here have upgraded with every new flagship APS-C released by PENTAX, in a quest for better IQ and ISO, faster AF, near silent shutter, the list goes on. Follow any Official PENTAX release thread and reviews for the last 4-5 years it's apparent the next latest and greatest offering just doesn't cut it for some so they either sit tight or move to other brands. As such, there is a demand for a substantially better advanced amateur or professional product still below what MF offers. Perhaps it's the allure of what FF offers or that we hope PENTAX will answer all our technological woes they're not packing into the current line of APS-C's. The D700 is still in demand 3 years later, same goes for the D300 at 4 years of age; aside from better ISO performance, most owners don't see much need to upgrade. That's the type of camera I want from PENTAX, one that can take me into the next 4-5 years of shooting to fulfill all my needs. After that I can focus on or rekindle my LBA with a Limited primes.
10-23-2011, 02:42 AM   #463
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
You just summarized first-hand what I was about to describe - The subset of folks who are drawn to a FF body because it will allow them to shoot all their old lenses in the way they want to shoot them still bring a net gain to Pentax. The body will show a profit at any price point it arrives at (within reason,) and the people who buy a new FF body and only shoot only old glass on it forever after will be a very small minority - the great majority of folks brought in to FF by the 'old glass' motivation will eventually and occasionally treat themselves to that new FA 135 f/2.8 limited, or that new FA 24-120 f/4, or the new 35 f/2 or 50 f/1.8, etc....

In all my time shooting Nikon and knowing folks who shot Nikon before I did, I've never met in person or encountered online anyone who bought into FF who did not buy at least one new lens for their FF camera. I'm sure they're out there... but I haven't met any.

"I want a FF camera that can shoot all my old glass" would be fine with Pentax. They know it's unlikely you'll stick to that. LBA lives in the hearts of us all.

.
Well said Jay.
10-23-2011, 05:23 AM   #464
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
I can only speak for myself, but if a FF camera materializes I certainly would want a great set of FF WR lenses to take advantage of the weather sealing. But I'd still mount my old glass of course, nothing beats 'the look'. A Takumar standard lens from 1957 on fullframe (in this case on my 5D) is certainly more than capable. [picture removed to save space.]
Wow, that's terrible IQ, see, the corners are all soft...

Seriously though, I think "good enough" is a subjective term anyway. Why don't we let the user decide what is good enough for him/her? CA, vignetting, and distortion are all fairly easy to correct with software. Corner sharpness is still tricky, but sometimes it's desirable as in this fine example from Ashaiflex, and other times we end up cropping anyway. I know I crop most of my pictures to 8x10 or 8.5x11 as those are the largest sizes I can print at home. A full frame camera would give me more pre-crop real estate from which to chose my final framing.
10-23-2011, 06:40 AM - 2 Likes   #465
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QuoteOriginally posted by F-Stop Quote
My thoughts exactly. A lot of people here have upgraded with every new flagship APS-C released by PENTAX, in a quest for better IQ and ISO, faster AF, near silent shutter, the list goes on. Follow any Official PENTAX release thread and reviews for the last 4-5 years it's apparent the next latest and greatest offering just doesn't cut it for some so they either sit tight or move to other brands. As such, there is a demand for a substantially better advanced amateur or professional product still below what MF offers. Perhaps it's the allure of what FF offers or that we hope PENTAX will answer all our technological woes they're not packing into the current line of APS-C's. The D700 is still in demand 3 years later, same goes for the D300 at 4 years of age; aside from better ISO performance, most owners don't see much need to upgrade. That's the type of camera I want from PENTAX, one that can take me into the next 4-5 years of shooting to fulfill all my needs. After that I can focus on or rekindle my LBA with a Limited primes.
Well put.

I felt that the K-7 wasn't a big enough step to upgrade from my K20D. I almost upgraded to the K-5, but when my 50-135mm went in for it's *fourth* repair I ordered a Sigma 70-200 the same day (I knew it was going to be a while...) That blew the rest of this years budget.

I'm not sure if I would have got a K-5 when the price dropped to ~$1000 here - all of this corporate churn and uncertainty (and non-commital responses to letters...) means that I'm probably done investing in Pentax until I start seeing some roadmaps from HQ, and a roadmap that includes FF.

The thing that bugs me about this thread is the idea that Pentax is somehow different enough that they aren't competing with C/N/S. Bull-crap. They have to compete head on, and the K-5 proves they can do it.

What would suck is if Pentax released a FF, but with the following retarded features:

- Mirrorless - because that automatically means no OVF. EVF's just plain SUCK. And a back-LCD only would be a big joke.

- Small - because the K-5 is already too small without the optional grip. My K20D is the perfect size for that big 70-200.

- Optically challenged; anything besides air between the rear lens element and the sensor is a joke. No mirrors or AA's, please.

- Digital filters; if I want to put a coffee stain, torn edges, or selective color in my images, I'll do it in post. Stupid kid options.

- Hello Kitty edition: anything but black is a joke / toy. (ok, maybe the stormtrooper edition would be cool...)

- High MP: We really don't need a 36 mp aps-c (isn't that cellphone camera sensor density?). Canon nailed it with the 1Dx. 18 is a great number for FF. I want big, BIG photon wells.

- Stuff that breaks: No tilting LCD. Yes, I'd like one on a $400 camera. No way I'll ever drop $5000 on a body where it's likely the LCD will be busted off in a couple of months of actual use. I want a TANK. I want it made of metal. When I drop it I want the floor tiles to crack.

I guess I just want a camera that works, that doesn't have a lot of stuff that will break so I can use it for years, and that isn't a megapixel race victim that needs a quad-core, dual battery setup just to shoot at a sucky 3fps.

Sigh.... that 1Dx is looking mighty good right now!
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