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10-27-2011, 09:46 AM   #646
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jan-61 Quote
This is also relative: Put a magnifying eyepiece on your APS-C cam and you're (almost) there.
Not relative. Inferior.

A smaller finder is only really justified by autofocus and feedback loops in the form of VF overlays for selected points, AE-L, etc. they are the crutches that have obviated some of what has been lost.

10-27-2011, 09:54 AM   #647
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there have been a number of them over the years but no digital

I lust after the Bronica myself very compact shoot portrait oriented 645 frames, has excellent lenses as well. It's really held value compared to the other Bronica Items though (I regret passing up a chance at one with 2 lenses and a flash in near new condition that had belonged to Oscar Peterson for $900 now I'd have trouble finding a lesser one with one lens for that range
10-27-2011, 10:56 AM   #648
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When I look in to my 5D the viewfinder seems to be closer to the eye compared to K-7 d5000 etc. Also its bright enough to use for mf in bad light (like iso 3200 f1,8 1/30). Feels more natural to focus manually with the 5D WF. Don't think a magnifying lens will be enough to match the 5D wf.

(failed to quote, dont know how that's possible)
10-27-2011, 11:19 AM   #649
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QuoteOriginally posted by Indecent Exposure Quote
Pentax "always" pulls the sheets off and "innovates"
Always? That seems a bit of exaggeration. While Pentax has often been a quirky company with more ideas than they know what to do with, they've struggled to come out with any innovations that would allow for significant gains in market share.

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
You have to look for reasons why we arrived at this market share disparity, because it's obviously not about product quality.
It's about prestige: Nikon and Canon enjoy the prestige of being the brands most professionals use. Photo enthusiasts tend to want to use the camera systems used by professionals. It is assumed that if you want to get the same results as professionals, you have to use the same equipment that professionals use. It is also assumed that professionals use cameras and lenses from the best brands. If most professionals are using Nikon or Canon, that's because Nikon and Canon are the "gold standard." While that may be true of some of the high end cameras and accessories, it's not necessarily true of the glass or of the mid-range and low-end stuff.

Pentax, to the extent that it is known or considered at all, is often remembered for the K1000, widely regarded, in its time, as the best "learner" camera. But in the SLR camera business, that's not what you want to be known for. It has caused Pentax to be stereotyped as "value" brand, as Sigma and Tamron are often regarded in the lens market. Value brands, it is assumed, make inferior products. These assumptions are difficult to challenge, because most people are not in a position to know any better, or to even care whether they know better. How many Nikon or Canon users, whether professionals or mere hobbyists, know anything about any of the products (particularly the lenses) Pentax has released in the last thirty years?

It is not enough for Pentax to create products which are more compelling than the Nikon or Canon alternatives, but they also have to find a way to get the message out, so that people know that these compelling products exist.

10-27-2011, 11:57 AM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
It's about prestige: Nikon and Canon enjoy the prestige of being the brands most professionals use. Photo enthusiasts tend to want to use the camera systems used by professionals.
This is what I was thinking, too, until I remembered that Nikon and Canon used to be the most visible professional brands back in the film days, too, but that didn't stop Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Ricoh, Contax, etc... from selling enough SLRs to remain viable. It's only been relatively recently that the market has seen this huge shift.



QuoteQuote:
It is not enough for Pentax to create products which are more compelling than the Nikon or Canon alternatives, but they also have to find a way to get the message out, so that people know that these compelling products exist.
I think this may be the bigger hurdle for Pentax to overcome.
10-27-2011, 12:32 PM   #651
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
Kunzite, you and I are from opposite poles and will never agree. That's what Pentax are up against. So let's move on.


I can't help thinking Pentax are a bit of a basket case, and that's from someone who's been loyal (though not 100%) since the 1960s. No wonder they have less than 2% (thanks jsherman999 for that market share table - it makes startling reading).


They ignored the bridge camera market, entering too late to make an impression, and they seem to have poured massive resources into the compact market with nothing remarkable to offer.

In the dSLR sector they made some really bad mistakes. Having produced the smallest and sweetest-handling APS-C dSLR, complete with stainless steel chassis and feeling reassuringly similar in the hand to its 35mm forerunners, they proceeded to build subsequent models bigger, heavier and uglier. What was the point of those beautiful ultra-compact lenses when the bodies were anything but? They abandoned the small-is-good marketing formula and at that point I for one started looking elsewhere. They have now tried to recapture it but added significantly to weight and clutter in the process. Not good enough. The *istDS body weighs 505g, K-7 body 670g. Even the K-r is 544g with only a pentamirror. See how they've grown and put on weight...
ME Super 132x83x50 (445g)
MX 136x83x50 (495g)
*ist 122x84x63mm (pentamirror) - nice size but plasticky build so not worth quoting weight
*istDS 125x92x66 (505g) - the packaging yardstick, in my opinion; no bigger, no heavier than this please
K-20D 142x101x70 (715g)!!!
K-r 125x97x68 (pentamirror) (544g)
K-7 130x96x72 (670g)!!!
A typical well-spec'ed, last-of-the-film-era full-frame SLR body, such as my Contax Aria, weighs 460g and measures 137x92x54. Nice feel, comfortable weight and a pleasant companion all day long. Many people must be wondering: why, in simple language please, does FF digital (or even APS-C) need to be bigger and more burdensome than this?
Because not everyone has the same size hands and not everyone wants a tiny camera.
10-27-2011, 12:46 PM   #652
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
It's about prestige: Nikon and Canon enjoy the prestige of being the brands most professionals use. Photo enthusiasts tend to want to use the camera systems used by professionals.
And what's a good way to mitigate that prestige disparity?

I doubt Pentax may ever be able to gain a visible presence on the sidelines, frankly. But a FF body brings some additional legitimacy that can be visible in other ways - online chatter, glowing reviews, a celebrity or two seen shooting one... Just a buzz, one that the K-3 probably isn't going to be able to establish.

Product placement is another way. I was watching American Gangster last night on cable, and the detectives were taking surveillance shots with.Pentax cameras (Spotmatics with Vivitar telephotos.) Movie was based in 1971 I think, so of course that would likely be the brand they'd be using, but placing a hot new Pentax FF DSLR in Brad Pitt's hands in a movie set it 2012 would be fantastic. Every camera I see in modern-day film is either a Canon, Nikon, Leica, some medium format, or taped-over/unknown. And ever notice how many computers in modern-setting films are Apples? $$ spent on Product Placement goes a long way.


QuoteQuote:
It is not enough for Pentax to create products which are more compelling than the Nikon or Canon alternatives, but they also have to find a way to get the message out, so that people know that these compelling products exist.
Agreed.



QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman:

...You have to look for reasons why we arrived at this market share disparity, because it's obviously not about product quality. Roughly:

1) Visibility (CaNikon are on the sidelines, in the big box stores, in TV commercials)
2) Lens selection (especially Canon)
3) Upgrade path (FF cameras make the line seem more established, complete, legitimate, and creates the sideline/pro visibility in #1)
4) AF speed, flash (flash matters to many folks, and AF lock differences can be detected at the counter and gets talked about by reviewers and online)
5) Momentum (enjoy advantages #1, 2, 3 and 4 for years, and you just can fight from on top of the momentum mountain)

A FF investment by Ricoh would directly address #3 and would encompass #2 and #4 as well as part of the investment . While that's happening, eyes are on the brand, and #1 is helped. We'd presume it would include an advert initiative as well. I don't know how they get into big boxes with their lower tiers, perhaps hat's actually even tougher than a FF introduction!
10-27-2011, 01:03 PM   #653
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FF, 100% viewfinder, built like a tank, faster autofocus, higher megapixel w/ lower noise, who wouldn't want that? I want Pentax to be around for a long time, so I'm for anything that will keep fans of the brand coming back time and again.

10-27-2011, 04:43 PM   #654
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
This is what I was thinking, too, until I remembered that Nikon and Canon used to be the most visible professional brands back in the film days, too, but that didn't stop Pentax, Minolta, Olympus, Ricoh, Contax, etc... from selling enough SLRs to remain viable. It's only been relatively recently that the market has seen this huge shift.
Being a value brand and acknowledging it has probably been what's saved Pentax through the digital transition. It sunk Konica, Minolta, Contax, Bronica, Yashica, and others. Olympus was out of the SLR game, got into DSLR's, now they're out and have a staggering corruption problem.

Through it all Pentax offered very good value, especially through the k-mount legacy, and have excellent ergonomics, and very good primes. What got me was the common sense idea to use AA batteries!

Still, it keeps them a very small player at about 5% market share in DSLR's.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 10-27-2011 at 07:31 PM.
10-27-2011, 04:51 PM   #655
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If PRIC are appealing to enthusiasts, it's not expensive to get the message out via good reviews and Internet "word of mouth". It takes work, but not a lot of money for media buys. No need for billboards or adverts in general interest magazines. If they do have to invest in appearances at shows and large stores, that can get expensive. Must be very careful about choices.

If they're after upgraders, those who have never visited DPR or held a copy of Pop Photo, then we do have a real challenge. It's very, very hard to bring up brand awareness of a niche player. I liked the K-X print ads a great deal - aimed at the family record-keeper who's usually the mother.

We'll see .....
10-27-2011, 10:24 PM   #656
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikey Quote
FF, 100% viewfinder, built like a tank, faster autofocus, higher megapixel w/ lower noise, who wouldn't want that? I want Pentax to be around for a long time, so I'm for anything that will keep fans of the brand coming back time and again.
Canon 1Dx is for you. Even D3X is good.
10-28-2011, 01:31 AM   #657
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
I liked the K-X print ads a great deal - aimed at the family record-keeper who's usually the mother.

We'll see .....
Pentax isn't good at this anymore. There are better solutions for this task (mirrorless cams).
10-28-2011, 01:55 AM   #658
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Pentax isn't good at this anymore. There are better solutions for this task (mirrorless cams).
I don't agree that mirrorless cams are necessarily a better solution, but at least they are perceived as better. Young mothers will probably look for something small and light that fits in their bag, so even if they know exactly what they will be missing in a camera without an OVF, they will still prefer the mirrorless solutions.
10-28-2011, 01:58 AM - 1 Like   #659
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One of the campaigns that helped put Pentax on the map in the 1960s and 1970s (apart from the "Just hold a Pentax" theme) was the series of ads that featured the Pentaxes of various celebrities, starring the S1a's, SV's, Spotties and ES's of the time often looking well and truly beaten up with dented pentaprism housing and brass showing through the black enamel. The theme in this case was that besides being a handy size and a constant companion the Pentax was rugged, hard-working and reliable no matter what.

In those days most amateurs kept their precious SLR in an ERC and it was rare to see a naked camera except on a tripod. Few had seen inside a professional's bag. So these images of Pentaxes that had had a hard life were quite shocking and memorable. And of course confidence-building.

Time for some more clever advertising instead of the constant bland stuff.

Last edited by unfocused; 10-28-2011 at 02:05 AM.
10-28-2011, 03:13 AM   #660
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APS-H is not a solution, it is a new crop (yet another one) and would prevent SR. Some lenses aren't even compatible.
That's really a lot of efforts and money to create something still not much better.

Pentax should stay with APS-C rather than going with APS-H. And yes, sensor producers can produce whatever you ask them, but at what price?
Why do you think Sony does not provide Pentax with a MF CMOS uncropped 80Mpix for their 645D? Too costly. But they could do it.
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