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10-28-2011, 07:09 AM   #661
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So here's my crazy idea: MAKE TWO NEW CAMERA'S

The base for this is an APS-H sensor of about 28-21mm with a surface of 588^2 mm and pixelsize of 7 microns or 4,75 microns.
  1. New Hi-iso performance (sports/action orientated) camera with big pixels and a resolution of 12 megapixel.
  2. New Hi-resolution performance (for those big prints) camera with pixels the size of current K-5 and a resolution of 26 megapixel.
Just to bring it up. It is one camera with two different sonsor, where the customer has to descide wich one to buy. Or even buy one of each when you are a professional. This camera should be targeted at professional's (wich aren't a lot Pentax users at the time) and advanced amatures that want a great camera. It should not be an attempt to take on with 1Dx or D4, but setting a new niche for Pentax that has not to many competition. A camera that has some nice pro- futures and can deliver excellent images. For use for action/sports (at 8 fps and excellent imagequality up to iso 6400) without the trying to be a 1Dx or an excellent camera for weddings/reportages (with 26 megapixels at the excact smae quality as K-5 delivers) without the attempt to copy a D4 (or D3x).

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm not sure the market share is big enough to support two otherwise similar cameras. In fact I'm quite sure it isn't Otherwise the idea is not bad; Nikon did the same with the D3s and D3x.
But the main issue is the sensor. Not using a "mainstream" sensor is a huge risk; what if it doesn't perform as well as the competition? What if it's too costly? What if the sensor maker cannot keep up with technological improvements (this can have a big impact if the format is different)?
Otherwise, a "Limited" (exquisite mechanical quality) camera with APS-H sensor instead of a high-end APS-C model (if the price is in "FF" range it's no good) has it's appeal. If the viewfinder will be bigger.
Of course the market isn't big enough. The question is, will the market grow when you have a double pack to offer and save on R&D investment by creating two identical camera's that only future a different sensor?

On that sensor: The 26 megapixelsensor would be in my mind just a larg K-5 sensor with the excactly same specs for the sensor and quality for the pixels that is now in our K-5. Or would you considder that not good enough?

The 12 megapixelsensor is different. So how to get your hands on that design is the question. I have no idea if it is for sale in future for Pentax.

And yes ofcouse would this be that need small rugget camera that tops above the current K-5 that still would be the APS-C topcamera for another year. At the right price you can sell enough of them I think. Targeting for two different styles of users would make them sell easier.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
No any sense. Strange focal ranges. No lenses for APS-H. No manufacturer of such sensor.
Wel a lot of our current lenses can be used on this camera. Non of the zooms, except DA*60-250mm), non of the wide-angle lenses. But with 31mm, 35mm, 40mm, 43mm, 50mm, 55mm, 70mm, 77mm, 100mm, 200mm, 300mm and 60-250mm there is a start. Still a need for 28-70 and 80-200 or something a like in fast zooms and a few good wide-angle options (as is with Full Frame).

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I agree. APS-H was Canon's attempt to keep a full feature, ultra-durable "pro" camera for journalists. . . The sensor just happened to be the most economical size both for production and IQ, at least for print journalism, and that's what led to its being.
Maybe this sensor still is the most economical answer for Pentax to future a relative compact size camera with a large sensor. What would your choice be if it was this APS-H or only APS-C?

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
APS-H is not a solution, it is a new crop and would prevent SR. That's really a lot of efforts and money to create something still not much better. Pentax should stay with APS-C rather than going with APS-H. And yes, sensor producers can produce whatever you ask them, but at what price?
Why do you think Sony does not provide Pentax with a MF CMOS uncropped 80Mpix for their 645D? Too costly. But they could do it.
I have no idea why it should prevent SR. It needs a new modelled SR system, but the input of R&D could also spin-off to the APS-C camera's. It can be better, because I think that 12 large megapixels can bring great image quality and 26 (K-5) megapixels can produce the detail of Sony's A77 at a better quality due to bigger sensils. Maybe Pentax descided to use for 645D a ready sensor due to not having any budget to experiment on a new sensor. When 645D-II hits the streets with a full sized MF sensor then it will be more expensive then the current 645D. So choosing that 40 megapixelsensor was a wise start.

10-28-2011, 07:27 AM   #662
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
What would your choice be if it was this APS-H or only APS-C?
The difference in the endresult - the photo - between APS-C and FF is already very small. Who would be interested in a sensor with even a smaller difference? One would have to do some serious pixelpeeping to discover differences between APS-C and APS-H. I don't think lots of folks will upgrade from APS-C then, but just hold tight and wait for that FF to come out.
10-28-2011, 07:36 AM   #663
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
. Maybe Pentax descided to use for 645D a ready sensor due to not having any budget to experiment on a new sensor. When 645D-II hits the streets with a full sized MF sensor then it will be more expensive then the current 645D. So choosing that 40 megapixelsensor was a wise start.
I think ultimately they will end up with 2 645d options, unless Kodak goes under and no-one picks up the sensor business. the current one could drop in price to say $8000 and the new FF 60-80 mp model can come in at twice that with a few upgrades that are also developed for the FF model (ie better AF and Metering and faster image processor better flash functionality)
this would really hurt phase i think. less so Hassy who have loyal very clientele (most of whom have a large investment in glass) until the 645D came along new users moving to MF mostly were going to Phase as it was the best priced system. the 645D ended that a FF 645D could really consolidate the hold on the MF market for quite a while as there would be an upgrade path maintain the benefits of eliminating the back (ie proper lens to film plane no adjustment required)
10-28-2011, 07:40 AM   #664
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The difference in the endresult - the photo - between APS-C and FF is already very small. Who would be interested in a sensor with even a smaller difference? One would have to do some serious pixelpeeping to discover differences between APS-C and APS-H. I don't think lots of folks will upgrade from APS-C then, but just hold tight and wait for that FF to come out.
Still curious. The difference between my suggested APS-H in size toward APS-C is about the (+61 % sensorspace) as is going from micro-4/3th to APS-C. When you say that difference is not so important, then I don't understand why everyone is complaining about that sensor size.

The difference in size is about the same also as is between 645D and a full frame camera.

10-28-2011, 07:52 AM   #665
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Young mothers will probably look for something small and light that fits in their bag, so even if they know exactly what they will be missing in a camera without an OVF, they will still prefer the mirrorless solutions.
Many drive mini-vans and tote around bags larger than what a medium format shooter uses.

I see many parents with DSLR's. I have seen no market information or intuition that they resent the size of these cameras. I suspect, like many, the OVF has appeal.
10-28-2011, 07:57 AM   #666
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If Canon has retired the 1D line, no one makes an APS-H sensor now (not that Canon ever let anyone else use their sensors).

Pentax/Ricoh would have to commission the development and production of an entirely new sensor from scratch, including a dedicated production line for the format, for a (relatively) low volume product, which would be extremely costly. It would almost certainly be more costly than purchasing an FF sensor from someone like Sony, who already has the production lines set up, and puts out high volumes for their own cameras.

Last edited by Cannikin; 10-28-2011 at 08:29 AM.
10-28-2011, 08:24 AM   #667
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
If Canon has now retired the 1D line, no one makes an APS-H sensor now (not that Canon ever let anyone else use their sensors).

Pentax/Ricoh would have to comission the development and production of a brand new sensor from scratch, including a dedicated production line for the format, for a (relatively) low volume product, which would be extremely costly. It would almost certainly be more costly than purchasing an FF sensor from someone like Sony, who already has the production lines set up, and puts out high volumes for their own cameras.
It would not be "extremely costly", and would still be cheaper than FF. The wafers don't change. The process to cut them down is flexible. It would not be a "new sensor from scratch". Samsung took the wafer for the new 20MP APS-C and made a 36mm x 36mm sensor for product testing and they have expressed interest in making 4/3 sensors for Olympus. Samsung can make whatever size you want. I'm sure there is a minimum purchase, but making special sized sensors is not difficult task.

Leica is using APS-H in its M8 which is still in production.

APS-H came into existence because it is the largest sensor that can be made with a single mask. FF require multiple stage photo-lithography with multiple masks.
10-28-2011, 08:37 AM   #668
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
It would not be "extremely costly", and would still be cheaper than FF. The wafers don't change. The process to cut them down is flexible. It would not be a "new sensor from scratch". Samsung took the wafer for the new 20MP APS-C and made a 36mm x 36mm sensor for product testing and they have expressed interest in making 4/3 sensors for Olympus. Samsung can make whatever size you want. I'm sure there is a minimum purchase, but making special sized sensors is not difficult task.

APS-H came into existence because it is the largest sensor that can be made with a single mask. FF require multiple stage photo-lithography with multiple masks.
And both sensors would still be using the same (or very alike) sensorhousing module that wil go in the camera. So not everything is new in design or unique

10-28-2011, 08:53 AM   #669
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
A camera that has some nice pro- futures and can deliver excellent images. For use for action/sports (at 8 fps and excellent imagequality up to iso 6400) without the trying to be a 1Dx or an excellent camera for weddings/reportages (with 26 megapixels at the excact smae quality as K-5 delivers) without the attempt to copy a D4 (or D3x).
[...]
Of course the market isn't big enough. The question is, will the market grow when you have a double pack to offer and save on R&D investment by creating two identical camera's that only future a different sensor?
[...]
Maybe this sensor still is the most economical answer for Pentax to future a relative compact size camera with a large sensor. What would your choice be if it was this APS-H or only APS-C?
Going after the "action/sports pro" market will be both very expensive and technically difficult.
I don't think the market share will grow be significantly bigger by having two such cameras instead of one. OTOH, it would probably be more expensive to order smaller quantities from two different sensors; even more so if the sensors must be custom made.
Of course, I'd chose APS-H - if the sensor is available, very good and cheap enough. It would be tough if the choice is between APS-H and "FF", that would be the same mistake Olympus made with 4/3.
10-28-2011, 09:01 AM   #670
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I see many parents with DSLR's. I have seen no market information or intuition that they resent the size of these cameras. I suspect, like many, the OVF has appeal.
Being a parent of young kids myself, I would suspect that AF speed is a bigger appeal of DSLRs than the OVF. It certainly was a big reason why I went with a DSLR after 2 Fuji "bridges".
10-28-2011, 09:10 AM   #671
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Going after the "action/sports pro" market will be both very expensive and technically difficult.
I don't think the market share will grow be significantly bigger by having two such cameras instead of one. OTOH, it would probably be more expensive to order smaller quantities from two different sensors; even more so if the sensors must be custom made.
Well going after the sportsmarket is something else then bringing a camera to the market that actally could be used on a very good level to make sport-/actionpictures. I think that aming on the last one is a good start for now.

We are talking about a significantly more expensive camera then K-5 is, targeted at an audience that probably will buy new lenses of hi-quality. So maybe the difference in price is of less importance if it is not to big.

The question on the marketshare is: When one FF camera is made, do we expect to have a marketshare of 4 %? If two of these APS-H camera are coming to the market (targeted at different users), can we expect an at least 50 % bigger marketshare (so 6 % of the Full Frame market - or the bigger then APS-C market)?
10-28-2011, 09:18 AM   #672
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Last month, the owner of Pentaxeros.com (Spanish Pentax community/store) and I joined forces and wrote a letter to Pentax presenting a case for why Pentax needs to work on developing a full-frame DSLR.

The list of reasons what quite elaborate (here's a brief summary):
In any case, Pentax listened! Not only did we get a written response from the president of Pentax Europe, but he assured us that management in Japan (as well as the R&D department in Europe) will be forwarded our feedback, and that (following acquisition by Ricoh) the company plans on expanding its Advanced Amateur and Professional product lines. Once I get permission to post the letter, I will attach in in this thread!

Update: here is the response from Pentax
Hmm, it's been almost 10 days now, we still haven't seen the actual 'response' yet ...
10-28-2011, 09:24 AM   #673
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IMO they shouldn't directly target pros, but rich(er) amateurs
I'd rather have a quiet, ultrareliable camera instead of a very fast one.

I can't even guess not knowing anything - specs, probable prices and so on. It could even have an adverse reaction: "look, now Pentax will never make a FF camera - I'll switch to Nikon!", or "a full frame is only $xxx more - I'll buy that!".
10-28-2011, 09:46 AM   #674
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Being a parent of young kids myself, I would suspect that AF speed is a bigger appeal of DSLRs than the OVF.
Yep.

Personally I love and value the OVF, but AF-lock speed and accuracy trumps almost everything else for that particular application, IMO.


.
10-28-2011, 09:46 AM   #675
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QuoteOriginally posted by frank Quote
Hmm, it's been almost 10 days now, we still haven't seen the actual 'response' yet ...
Actually Frank, It was posted on the 20th of October... Pentax and Full Frame - Pentax Camera News & Rumors - PentaxForums.com. It was announced by Adam in the 222nd post in this very thread (https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/162663-pentax-full-fra...ml#post1687113)

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