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10-28-2011, 09:55 AM   #676
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Not having a FF line up does hurt the business.

I am a long time Canon user and owner of a 5D. If I was planning on staying with Canon I would buy a 7D and all my glass would work on both cameras and give me that 1.6 multiplier. My 85L become a really fast 135mm and my 135L becomes a fast 200mm. There is a lot of flexibility with have both bodies in the bag with a set of primes. I had planned on going with Sony, but SLT technology has put a hold on that plan. The 1Dx is overkill for me, but if the 18MP sensor ends up in an smaller body (I am hoping for an EOS 3D) I will probably stay with Canon and wait for the 7DII to come out for my APS-C body.

I know a lot of FF owners who also own APS-C bodies. The two complement each other for higher end users.

Of course if Pentax can improve its AF and introduce a FF (or APS-H) I would be interested. But they need the glass to support that. The 85L and 135L are my bread and butter lenses. Give me a pro-grade 24-70, 85mm, & bring back the A* 135mm (with AF) and I could see myself using Pentax full-time. My favorite walk-around zoom is a 24-70 on an APS-C body and Pentax does not give me that option. I like in-body SR. I like DNG format. I like the compact size and quiet shutter.

10-28-2011, 10:34 AM   #677
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Being a parent of young kids myself, I would suspect that AF speed is a bigger appeal of DSLRs than the OVF. It certainly was a big reason why I went with a DSLR after 2 Fuji "bridges".
I would agree. As a soccer coach I see the DSLR as the "soccer Mom" camera and the PDAF trumps everything when tracking moving children.

The bizarre fixation on this Forum with compact DSLR design goes against raw market data which shows that Nikon and Canon and Sony, making bigger DSLR's, decisively outsold Pentax and Olympus selling smaller body DSLR's. The irrational belief that Pentax has some engineering capacity to shrink components where others have failed is Kool-Aid. A slightly smaller APS-C or FF camera from Pentax will do nothing to sway people from the ecosystems of Canon or Nikon. The popularity of the strobist set makes the case for Nikon, for example. Where does Pentax compete there? it doesn't? And the video sub-set? That goes to Canon? And do on. A slightly smaller camera body (with a honking big FF lens) is not going to sway those market dynamics.
10-28-2011, 10:36 AM - 1 Like   #678
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
And what's a good way to mitigate that prestige disparity?
Pentax has to actively court professionals. Zero in on a specific type of professionals (like wedding photographers, for example), find out in what ways Canon and Nikon are not meeting their needs, and then make up for the deficiency. Get the product into the hands of the most influential professionals in the field, and actively promote those who are willing to use Pentax gear. Sponser workshops with pros using Pentax stuff. One of the most frequently posed question to professionals is "What gear do you use?" The prestige of the Pentax brand would be enhanced if more professionals answered, "Pentax."

Thanks to the internet, it's much easier to disseminate information. When the 645D was released for the U.S. market, Pentax produced a video with Kerrick James about the camera. Pentax needs to make videos like this for most of their products. And they need to make these videos as accessible as possible. If someone does a google search for a Canon or Nikon 50mm lens, there should be a google add linking to the video about the FA 43 or DA* 55.

Of course, none of this is going to yield immediate results. There's no silver bullet. It's a long, slow, tedious process, involving a great many measures which, if taken an isolation, are not likley to be very effective, but when combined together might move things forward; and of course there are no guarantees of ultimate success. Large market share gives Nikon and Canon huge advantages which may prove insurmountable.

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
But a FF body brings some additional legitimacy that can be visible in other ways
Pentax needs to smooth out the kinks in their APS-C system before they venture into FF. An FF body tied to an inferior flash system, lacking proper support, and deficient in the right glass will only reinforce the meme that Pentax does not produce a system for "serious" photographers.
10-28-2011, 10:56 AM   #679
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Pentax has to actively court professionals.
I completely disagree. That's 1980's marketing at work.

In the 1970's to 1990's people followed the tech used by pros. There was a hierarchy of experience and a "name" user could sell a brand.

No longer. In many cases (Flickr has an abundance) amateurs have equaled and even surpassed pros. Hardly anyone even reads the old school "pro" magazines; they're all on life support, surpassed by forums such as this and DP Review, Luminous Landscapes, The Online Photographer, Rangefinder Forums, Fred Miranda, etc. ON these opinion sites there is a democracy of opinions, so it is perilous for a company to select one as the most influential. That tactic has no reach anymore. people are as likely to argue with the endorsement as they are to agree with it, like we argue here.

In marketing I have watched the near-disappearance of the celebrity endorsements along with the semi-obscure, know-it-all "pro" (who most people have never heard of) talking up his or her favourite product. We no longer trust a single voice (or even the manufacturer's claims) but are far more willing to check out a product's rating on Amazon, DP Review, or here on PF.

I the 1970's Canon actually moved away from "pro" endorsements precisely because it caused price confusion for consumer. Pro = expensive. instead they got non-pro photogs to endorse. Bruce Jenner, etc.

These days what sells is the Everyman or Woman concept and the personalization agenda (K-x colours, case in point). Our product is perfect for you: here's why. Who cares what a National Geographic shooter uses? You don't shoot for National Geo. You shoot for your inner circle shared on Facebook and Flickr.

10-28-2011, 11:04 AM   #680
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
...
Pentax needs to smooth out the kinks in their APS-C system before they venture into FF. An FF body tied to an inferior flash system, lacking proper support, and deficient in the right glass will only reinforce the meme that Pentax does not produce a system for "serious" photographers.

This type of statement is common and doesn't take into account the obvious: a FF move includes that remediation as part of the investment.

It's similar to saying, "Pentax can't go into FF, it doesn't have the lenses." In fact a reinvigorated lens roadmap is probably the single biggest capital outlay in the whole initiative. It's part of the deal. And it encourages entry into the aps-c tier as well as keeps folks who would like to to stay only there happier with their mount choice.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 10-28-2011 at 11:12 AM.
10-28-2011, 11:11 AM   #681
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

The bizarre fixation on this Forum with compact DSLR design goes against ...

Careful with the qualifications. It's not bizarre at all, in fact I encounter that sentiment constantly in the Nikon FF forums.

It would enable Pentax to stand out a bit from the competition, especially with the look/feel attribute. It would also highlight one of Pentax's unique underutilized strengths - the excellent, small, relatively affordable FA Limiteds - when mounted on a relatively compact, solid FF body, the ergos + output would make a lot of influential photography writers salivate over the combos.



.
10-28-2011, 12:29 PM   #682
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What? You mean that Ashton Kutcher doesn't help Nikon sell a bunch of cameras? Or celebrity tennis players for Canon - they done that back in the Canon AE days up to Maria Sharapova for the powershots...

If the Nikon 1 manages to beats m4/3 (MILC industry dominance) it would be entirely due to marketing and brand recognition over substance.
10-28-2011, 12:35 PM   #683
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I think you're right Jay, look at the cult following of the DA 40. If indeed the DA 40 shares the optical formula from the M 40, put it on a Pentax FF and watch what happens.

I don't care about a compact camera though, but many people do. I want a BIG optical viewfinder and a BIG balanced body for FF. Oh, and a BIG, fast and accurate AF system.

A large cult following, also called a niche market would probably sell more cameras than a celebrity. Putting a DA 15 in Ashton Kutcher's hands might sell a few, but I'd be surprised if he could sell more than the DA 15 Controls My Mind thread here does.

10-28-2011, 12:37 PM   #684
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As a Marketing student, Pentax simply needs to up their exposure. I had an interview for a photographer position and the lady asked what I use, I responded "Pentax" to which she answered "What is that and how does it compare to Canon and Nikon?". Pentax really needs to up their exposure so their brand is a household name, like it is in Europe and Asia.

Next, they need to sell Pentax as an experience. People these days aren't always looking for features and benefits, but to belong to a group. Look at Apple for instance. This is not to say you can get by without having those features, but you need to sell the product as an experience. When you use Canon or Nikon, you know it's what the pro's use. Pentax just doesn't have that association. Pentax could either take this one of two ways. One, they market themselves as the "pro" brand like Canon or Nikon, or two, they find another niche to market to. Given Canon and Nikon's saturation of the market, I think 2 would be the better option. Then they could expand from whatever that niche is to provide tools for the professional as well. Pentax could make a limited run top of the line APS-C, and market it heavily as the "ultimate camera" (5Dx?) that only a select few are privileged to use. Price it high, and have the K-5 and K-R waiting for those who can't get a hold of one. The trick would be to market it as Pentax's return to the SLR market, and how they are going to change the playing field.

All this is just typed as I think it, really just my thoughts on what they could do. Given that their marketing department is non-existent, none of this will likely happen.
10-28-2011, 12:41 PM   #685
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zarkon Quote
What? You mean that Ashton Kutcher doesn't help Nikon sell a bunch of cameras? Or celebrity tennis players for Canon - they done that back in the Canon AE days up to Maria Sharapova for the powershots...

If the Nikon 1 manages to beats m4/3 (MILC industry dominance) it would be entirely due to marketing and brand recognition over substance.
I think Pentax should give some DSLRs to the entire cast of Jersey Shore for one episode. After a night of spilled beer, hot tub drops, and vomit, they pick up the bodies and say "Hey, these things still work! And look, in these shots Mike looks like Popeye on crack!" It would be a golden hour for Pentax.


.

Last edited by jsherman999; 10-28-2011 at 12:46 PM.
10-28-2011, 12:52 PM   #686
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zarkon Quote
If the Nikon 1 manages to beats m4/3 (MILC industry dominance) it would be entirely due to marketing and brand recognition over substance.
Well I had it in my hands, and that is going to bring Olympus to the graveyard.

QuoteOriginally posted by soppy Quote
As a Marketing student, Pentax simply needs to up their exposure.

One, they market themselves as the "pro" brand like Canon or Nikon, or two, they find another niche to market to.
I'm with you on this one and number two is your number. Pentax did make a choice, they only have to follow that path and walk it all the way.

Pentax as an outdoors and adventure's camera!

For that it is a pleasure when it is smaller then other brands camera's!
10-28-2011, 04:56 PM   #687
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I think Pentax should give some DSLRs to the entire cast of Jersey Shore for one episode. After a night of spilled beer, hot tub drops, and vomit, they pick up the bodies and say "Hey, these things still work! And look, in these shots Mike looks like Popeye on crack!" It would be a golden hour for Pentax.
Think about the IQ of the people you think should have Pentax products in their hands and ask whether viewers are watching the JS with dreams of being like these people, or are many viewers laughing at them.

Brand placement is a tricky thing.

Pentax has no brand identity. Nikon is a photographer's camera, all technical and professional. Canon is everything to everyone, but here is only space in the market for one Canon. Sony is the also-ran willing to run with new tech, but finding it hard to reach a fickle, conservative user base. Olympus and Panasonic are high on the small form factor, retro-technical experience (Olympus) or super-gizmo (Panasonic). Fuji and Casio flood the market with lots of cheap cameras at multiple price points, with Fuji doing interesting R&D and sensor stuff to keep the aficionados happy, and Casio doing some geek stuff. Leica is a mix of handbag accessory for rush dentists or an over-price, over-engineered marketing scheme (with a not-so-good sensor). Ricoh is a box of mystery, full of interesting compromises, hoping one will be a big hit. Pentax has veered between Subaru and lipstick.
10-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #688
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They need wr limited lenses and a freakin articulating screen. I miss so many low profile landscapes cuz i cant view the screen well. I just played with the Sony A77 and im digging that swivel screen. They need to make big moves.
10-28-2011, 05:50 PM   #689
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I'm leaning toward the articulating screen too, never thought I would, but have you ever tried to find a decent magnifying right angle to confirm focus? It doesn't exist. Most of them have such horrible IQ at 2.5x or 3x that it's actually easier to just focus at 1x.

I loathe having to use live view to focus on the K20d for low angle shots, but I understand the K-5 has a CDAF feature. That works when the mirror is up, right, there's no need to have it flip down just to focus? If so then an articulated screen would be a viable solution for low angle portraits, and creative forced perspective (one of my favorite things). Of course I'd trade an articulating LCD for an honest-to-God optical waist level finder <drool....>, but I doubt I will ever see one on a DLSR.
10-28-2011, 06:16 PM   #690
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
It strikes me as a lot of hopeful hubbub over, "Thank you for your letter; I am passing it along."

We're like ugly high school girls all dressed up and sitting at home by the phone on prom night, hoping we'll get a date.
I DEFUSE to believe that.
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