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10-29-2011, 12:31 PM   #706
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Overwhelmingly, I take photos for my own pleasure, and my photographic skills have grown a lot in the year and a half since I bought my K-7. If your argument is that clubs and contests and other structured forms of community involvement would have grown these skills faster, sure, I don't disagree. Frankly, I'm content to explore photography at the pace and in the directions that I am, because I have a variety of hobbies and interests that compete for my time. Perhaps some day that will change, but not for now. Does this invalidate my choice in equipment? Is a P&S "good enough" for me because I choose Flickr as my medium when I want to show someone what I've been working on?

QuoteQuote:
Is P&S "clumsy" these days? I have an Ixus and a G12 for those occasions when dragging a dSLR around isn't necessary. Both are "quick on the draw" and perfectly OK for most Flickr situations.
This is the attitude I have a problem with. What exactly is a "Flickr situation"? Is that a genre of photo? Or are you suggesting that Flickr users are inherently too undiscerning to gauge the difference between a P&S and better equipment? I don't need external validation or critique from arbitrarily qualified groups of people to recognize and exploit the capabilities of a dslr, or to find value in my hobby. Or even to grow. I doubt I'm in the minority here, so please don't try to invalidate how and why other people produce and display their work simply because it's not in line with how you choose to see the world.
+++1. I fully agree with your comments, v5Planet. To each his own!

10-29-2011, 01:43 PM   #707
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Now that we do get a response from someone very high up within Pentax, how about writing to them about other open issues like SDM failures, K-r Tungsten AF fiasco and mirror slap. My DA* 50-135 has started to misbehave and squeak like a dying mouse. My brand new K-r was recently returned from CRIS after "AF adjustment". I had to write-off a DA* 16-50 because of SDM issues and refusal of the previous Pentax management to accept their mistakes and provide a free recall - or repair. Even a firmware fix to use screw-drive instead of SDM via a firmware option setting will be welcomed by this community.

Moreover, if Ricoh wants to get professionals to use Pentax equipment, they should also look at providing decent service offerings to include faster turn-around times.

Ricoh management - are you listening?
10-29-2011, 02:12 PM   #708
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bramela Quote
+++1. I fully agree with your comments, v5Planet. To each his own!
+++++++++++++++++++++2

And heck I just bought a D700. I came into some extra money and happened upon a great deal on some Nikon AI lenses. I recently changed jobs and had a ton of accrued vacation. You got paid for all the vacation days you didn't use + I got another sum that I hadn't expected. Given all this Full Frame fuss, I thought I'd see what it's about. I really like to manual focus and that's not so easy on the K5 with my aged eyesight. I find auto focus takes a lot of the fun out of photography. Apparently this is much easier on the D700 so I'm all about that. It arrives this coming week. But I also use a MFT camera (EVF's are super easy to manual focus with if your eyes are old) and the dreaded Sigma DP's. In the end, I bet I will use them more than the D700. I would take what a lot of these people say with a huge grain of salt. Some of the best photography I've seen recently was done with an Iphones and MFT cameras. Content is the important part. Anybody can take a technically good photo with today's DLSR's and some pretty cheap software. The camera sets everything for you and then focuses too. If you can't fail what's the point in trying.

Or as Stanley Kubrick once said: "Perhaps when everything is beautiful nothing is beautiful." Actually he was talking about using drugs but I suppose it's applicable.... :-)

According to Jack Nicholson, Kubrick once told him when critiquing a performance: "It's real, but it's not interesting."

As for the other post re: quality control, yes Pentax has a huge hole to dig themselves out of. I think Ricoh will do this but it may take a few years. Ricoh makes really good cameras. Anyone wanting a good PS should look no further than the GRD III/IV.
10-29-2011, 03:22 PM   #709
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"Most of my shots never make it past Flickr and these forums", you said v5planet, sounding very much as if you wished you could break out. Which is why I suggested photo clubs. You don't have to follow their rigorous programme, you can dip in and out.

Some clubs are indeed amateurish so it pays to pick a good one with a good programme that brings in experts and runs challenging competitions and exhibitions - i.e. one that makes you work to expand your skills. That way you WILL make it past Flickr.

I don't know where you live, but here in the UK it means joining a club that's affilliated to the Photographic Alliance of Great Britain, which has links throughout the photographic world and sets high standards and provides, for example, properly accredited judges and a decent lecture service. Most clubs bring in speakers whose work is tremendously inspirational. There's nothing like having photographic projects to complete and actually rubbing shoulders with like-minded people and pitting your work against theirs. Plus it'll make you less preoccupied with the technology and more focused on the art.

"Clumsy P&S" were your words too. What's clumsy? OK, P&S cameras may have certain weaknesses. But creativity is not in the camera, it's in the photographer's mind. Most photographic situations (admittedly not all) can be handled with a simple camera.

When it comes to pride of ownership and love of technology, which I know is a great source of enjoyment, we're not really talking photography and the connection between the two is iffy.


Last edited by unfocused; 10-29-2011 at 03:41 PM.
10-29-2011, 03:50 PM   #710
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
If you spent a lot of money to be creative I'm surprised you haven't progressed beyond Flickr and Facebook. In photography terms your sights seem to be set pretty low. Why not join a photo club, enter your work for competitions and be prepared to take constructive criticism on the chin? That'll get you out of the Flickr rut and give you the incentive to be truly creative.
Who said he was in a rut? There is nothing wrong with posting on Flickr and Facebook.

It's awfully arrogant to presume about his motivations and photography skills based on where he posts his pictures.
10-29-2011, 03:52 PM   #711
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
plus it'll make you less preoccupied with the technology and more focused on the art.

"clumsy p&s" were your words too. What's clumsy? Ok, p&s cameras may have certain weaknesses. But creativity is not in the camera, it's in the photographer's mind. Most photographic situations (admittedly not all) can be handled with a simple camera.

When it comes to pride of ownership and love of technology, which i know is a great source of enjoyment, we're not really talking photography and the connection between the two is iffy.
thank you!!!!! +1,000,000,000!!!!!!!!!
10-29-2011, 05:25 PM   #712
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
"Most of my shots never make it past Flickr and these forums", you said v5planet, sounding very much as if you wished you could break out. Which is why I suggested photo clubs. You don't have to follow their rigorous programme, you can dip in and out.

Some clubs are indeed amateurish so it pays to pick a good one with a good programme that brings in experts and runs challenging competitions and exhibitions - i.e. one that makes you work to expand your skills. That way you WILL make it past Flickr.
I meant no such thing, and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I don't consider Flickr a restriction or a limiter. I consider it a medium. It doesn't define or circumscribe what I do; it's just where I put some of my photos when I want to share them. I genuinely don't understand this notion of outgrowing Flickr. At some point I may choose other mediums, either in addition to or replacement of Flickr, but what does Flickr itself have to do with one's development as a photographer? You still haven't addressed that, and it's been the primary issue I've had with what you're saying.

QuoteQuote:
I don't know where you live, but here in the UK it means joining a club that's affilliated to the Photographic Alliance of Great Britain, which has links throughout the photographic world and sets high standards and provides, for example, properly accredited judges and a decent lecture service. Most clubs bring in speakers whose work is tremendously inspirational. There's nothing like having photographic projects to complete and actually rubbing shoulders with like-minded people and pitting your work against theirs.
I agree this is a good path for many. Being part of a community and exploring the minds and resources provided by peers and more experienced photographers is a great way to learn how to weigh your present abilities and how to push past them. For my part, I get most of that in online. Flickr has been a great hub for me to discover inspirational photographers and study different styles and subject matter. I also often set specific photographic projects for myself or identify types of photography I'd like to explore. When I do so I find that online tutorials, discussions in forums like this one, and the overwhelming VOLUME of photographers and their work to learn from makes the internet an incredible resource for digging deeper into this hobby and growing. And when I want critique or advice, it's never far away.

QuoteQuote:
Plus it'll make you less preoccupied with the technology and more focused on the art.

"Clumsy P&S" were your words too. What's clumsy? OK, P&S cameras may have certain weaknesses. But creativity is not in the camera, it's in the photographer's mind. Most photographic situations (admittedly not all) can be handled with a simple camera.

When it comes to pride of ownership and love of technology, which I know is a great source of enjoyment, we're not really talking photography and the connection between the two is iffy.
I'm not sure precisely what I did to give you the impression that my joy of dslrs comes from the fact that they're shiny, expensive objects. I also never said that one can't be creative with a P&S. My precise words were that dslrs offer "larger performance and creative control" over P&S cameras. "Control" is the operative word here -- simply owning a dslr won't make you a better or more creative photographer. But if you know what you want to do, dslrs put all the tools literally at your fingertips. P&Ss are without question far more clumsy instruments if you want to do more than take snapshots -- I can change half a dozen settings without moving my eye from the viewfinder with a dslr; I can precisely control DOF; exposure time; I can make simple manual focus or exposure adjustments on the fly. I can swap out lenses to gain access to a much wider range of focal lengths and rendering characteristics. In my mind, the dslr allows me to focus more on the art and not be preoccupied with the technology that's getting in the way. Simply having access to this level of control and the responsibility that comes with it has taught me an enormous deal about how cameras work and how to achieve precisely the effects I want. This has had a huge effect on the quality of my photography, and I feel that I have lots of room to grow with this equipment.

That's before we even consider the higher performance (in many categories) and image quality of the dslr tech. No, it won't make the photo for you. But the machine gets in the way less, and when you do things right, you'll be rewarded with higher quality images. The limits you can push your instruments to are far greater. It's really not even worth talking about, because you know all this already, or else you wouldn't own a dslr. Why pass judgment on the abilities and motivations of other photographers simply because they prefer popular digital mediums as a venue to display their work?
10-29-2011, 05:40 PM   #713
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Stuck on yourself much Unfocused?

10-29-2011, 05:50 PM   #714
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
"Most of my shots never make it past Flickr and these forums", you said v5planet, sounding very much as if you wished you could break out. Which is why I suggested photo clubs. You don't have to follow their rigorous programme, you can dip in and out.

Some clubs are indeed amateurish so it pays to pick a good one with a good programme that brings in experts and runs challenging competitions and exhibitions - i.e. one that makes you work to expand your skills. That way you WILL make it past Flickr.

I don't know where you live, but here in the UK it means joining a club that's affilliated to the Photographic Alliance of Great Britain, which has links throughout the photographic world and sets high standards and provides, for example, properly accredited judges and a decent lecture service. Most clubs bring in speakers whose work is tremendously inspirational. There's nothing like having photographic projects to complete and actually rubbing shoulders with like-minded people and pitting your work against theirs. Plus it'll make you less preoccupied with the technology and more focused on the art.

"Clumsy P&S" were your words too. What's clumsy? OK, P&S cameras may have certain weaknesses. But creativity is not in the camera, it's in the photographer's mind. Most photographic situations (admittedly not all) can be handled with a simple camera.

When it comes to pride of ownership and love of technology, which I know is a great source of enjoyment, we're not really talking photography and the connection between the two is iffy.
Good lord you're a snob."Properly accredited judges" can also mean"self-appointed" in some "clubs" I have experienced.

Take your lectures with their superiority overtones elsewhere, please.
10-29-2011, 06:16 PM   #715
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Good lord you're a snob."Properly accredited judges" can also mean"self-appointed" in some "clubs" I have experienced.

Take your lectures with their superiority overtones elsewhere, please.
You know I usually agree with a lot of what you post but here I have to respectfully disagree.

I think you are misinterpreting him. That's sort of the process. I work in Higher Ed and occasionally take art classes because they are free. Critiques and assignments are part of the process. They generally are very helpful. One thing for sure they taught me I had a long way to go if I thought I could paint....... I think a formal setting can be very helpful because the person critiquing your work has to do so in person. It's not the be all and end all, but it can be helpful. It also helps if you like someone else's photos to find out how they did them.

I really don't think he intended it to sound snobby but just to offer an alternative to posting a picture on a website and having some nameless person offer an assessment. Generally speaking I'm guessing that you will get more circumspect criticism in a formal critique than you will on Flickr. It's whatever works best for the individual. Anyone who thinks they have all the right answers is certainly the person who is most wrong. Myself included because I frequently find myself thinking that way if I don't stop to self reflect a bit. I think there is great value to both Flickr as well as to a more traditionally structured program.

On the gear issue (as a person who has way too much gear) I am in complete agreement with him. That said, I do love cameras, just don't like zoom lenses.
10-29-2011, 07:52 PM   #716
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OT, but I still had to chime in. The main regional town near me has one large photo club. I've met many of the members. 'Greasy neckbeards' and 'pompous gear heads' are two terms that spring to mind.

Oh, the horror.
10-29-2011, 08:59 PM   #717
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And this thread takes another tragic turn. ugh.
10-29-2011, 10:15 PM   #718
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And as such, let's get back on topic.
Seeing as though the upcoming Pentax FF camera is a formality, we can now focus a bit on the gear and discuss its possible/wanted specs.
As much as photography is an art and it takes skill, the gear is important - so I want to see some P-TTL magic, some AF tweaking, and some auto lens calibration features.
10-29-2011, 11:39 PM   #719
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
As much as photography is an art and it takes skill, the gear is important - so I want to see some P-TTL magic, some AF tweaking, and some auto lens calibration features.

Auto lens alignment would be nice, just set up some sort of target that the software will recognize, and the camera can chose the right FF/BF correction.

pTTL needs a lot of work, it doesn't even support zones, just channels. Shooting wirelessly, you can't really do anything from the camera position other than dial in EV compensation on the flash. I would like the ability to adjust zones independently from one another, and turn them on and off from the camera.

The second problem I have with pTTL is the hotshoe/pop-up/PC socket, they going inactive above 1/180th. There needs to be an expert setting or something that will allow them to fire even though they're not synced. I have a great HSS flash, but I can't use it wirelessly unless I have another on the shoe, AND contributing to the exposure.

The third issue is that when shooting in Av mode, which I don't really do, but some folks seem to like it, the camera tries to get the exposure correct without the flash, then adds the flash on top of that. There needs to be a way to tell the camera "Hey, don't worry, the flash is going to take care of that."

AF could use a little work, but if I had to choose between accuracy, and speed, I'd say make accuracy a priority. I can put my K20d on a good solid tripod with my DA* 50-135, aim it at a nice obvious straight line, hit the AF button (I don't use the shutter release to focus), wait a second until it find the focus and beeps, and that's not too bad. But if I hit AF 10 times, and take a shot each time, I will get 10 differently focused pictures. I'm primarily a portrait photographer, and I work a lot at f/2.8, my idea of "acceptable sharpness" is not very forgiving, so add accuracy and consistency to my AF wishlist.

These are the types of refinements that Pentax needs to make if it's going to produce a professional's camera.
10-30-2011, 01:45 AM   #720
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My list with my most desired upgrades. Important first.

1. Higher flash sync speed (my most used area of photography)

nope.... got no more... happy as it is
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