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10-31-2011, 12:04 PM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
Exactly how small is *possible*
The *istD has room for a full-frame sensor (and it has a full-frame mirror)- so there's your answer

Ideally I'd like to see something *slightly* bigger, but still with the option of a removable grip so that grip haters aren't turned away by the body.


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10-31-2011, 12:06 PM   #767
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The meme floating around here here is the overall idea that Pentax can increase their market presence by introducing a $3,000 FF camera, one with a slew of $1,000+ lenses, a new flash system, and so on.
There's a name for people like that, they're called "Professionals"
10-31-2011, 12:08 PM   #768
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The difference is a little bit hard to see but it's there- because the *ist D was originally supposed to be FF and then things changed for the worse when their planned sensor shit the bed.

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10-31-2011, 12:16 PM   #769
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thanks Adam, i think an updated D with a grip option and FF VF (maybe slightly larger) would be the ideal (though a FF that uses AA would have some fans i bet) not to mention a few people would like the TTL control it had
It shows that it could be done in a small(ish) body

Edit - bet you didn't think this thread would go this viral 769 posts and counting and almost 39000 views in 13 days

10-31-2011, 12:50 PM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
The *istD has room for a full-frame sensor (and it has a full-frame mirror)- so there's your answer

Ideally I'd like to see something *slightly* bigger, but still with the option of a removable grip so that grip haters aren't turned away by the body.
Well, a little bigger since there is room needed for:
  • SR system.
  • Wheatersealing
  • Dual cardslot.
  • Bigger battery compartment
  • No idea if electronics need more space these days
  • Bigger AF sensor, for better working.
  • Maybe even a bigger OVF (never looked true that IstD)

Do we have any idea howmany K-5's are sold?
10-31-2011, 01:18 PM - 1 Like   #771
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
...when their planned sensor shit the bed.
What kind of language is that, young man!?!? I'll tell your dad!
10-31-2011, 02:22 PM - 1 Like   #772
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
The difference is a little bit hard to see but it's there- because the *ist D was originally supposed to be FF and then things changed for the worse when their planned sensor shit the bed.
Actually, Adam, you showed a picture of the DS which already had an APS-C mirror box. Please let me copy a very old post of mine:

The MZ-5's mirror box:


The *ist D mirror box, which was FF from the start:


The *ist DS mirror box, which was made narrower:


Who wouldn't want a FF camera the size of the *ist D? I would, definitely! It can be done and I'm sure Pentax can do it. Not all FF DSLR's need to be like a ugly, heavy tank.
10-31-2011, 02:45 PM   #773
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Go FF!!!!

(Saving up for a 77 mm Limited regardless)

(Also wondering from the "Ricoh plug the gap in the market" thread whether the gap refers to digital photography in general or the FF gap in Pentax's lineup).

10-31-2011, 07:29 PM   #774
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oog Quote
(Saving up for a 77 mm Limited regardless)
YES.. the FA 77.. and some old glass.. I want me a SMC Tak 135mm f2.5 and a maybe replace my Super Tak 200mm f4 I got rid of..
10-31-2011, 08:28 PM   #775
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
To heap on the data, there exists vocal consumer, media, technical, and financial voices discussing openly the concept that DSLR's are going to be niche products due to the onset of mirrorless systems.
Where mirrorless will hit hardest is the lower-end DSLR segment. Pentax may not be able to count on K-x level sales carrying them through many more cycles. A lot of the black ink they saw in 2010 was the K-x.

If Ricoh wants to keep the main asset they purchased - K-mount - a viable revenue generator in the years to come, they will move into full frame. This means a relatively big, multi-year lens rollout, it means an enriched product line with tech that moves down the tiers, faster AF, most likely an improved in-lens motor system like Sigma's HSM II or Nikon's AF-S.

QuoteQuote:
FF looks only to be viable if Ricoh is willing to bet a staggering amount of money on the format, and lose that money for a 5-10 year period.
Ricoh spent something like $124 million USD purchasing Pentax. If you're a Ricoh, and you're doing well now, but you want to build revenue (and profit) generating businesses for the time after your bread and butter revenue source (copiers) may be entering an uncertain period - if not a period of decline - something like FF is exactly what you do.

You invest in the business you bought cheaply so that it's stronger and profitable when you need it to be. A 5 year ROI is not of great concern to someone like Ricoh, especially when they know that if they don't do it, the main asset they bought will have shrunk in relative and absolute terms due to pressure from above and below. No K-x equivalent in 2014 because of mirrorless pressure means bad things for Ricoh if they didn't start moving up the food chain to protect K-mount before that. At the same time, increasingly less-expensive FF bodies from Sony, Canon and maybe Nikon means an aps-c K-3 just isn't as attractive as an 'upgrade' as the K-5 was in 2011.

That's a bad pinch to be in. You start looking like the Olympus E-5 does today - a half-hearted product in a tier that dead-ends.

Pentax, K-mount and Ricoh have much more potential than that.

And as I said several times before: Sony isn't going crazy with the FF body prototypes over there because they think FF is a bad bet.



.

Last edited by jsherman999; 11-01-2011 at 06:34 AM.
10-31-2011, 10:07 PM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It's a worse idea to take a few fanboy arguments to heart. The market data simply does not lie. Pentax has less than 5% of the DSLR market and FF from other brands has less than 5% of their total DSLR sales.

This leaves Pentax with very few potential customers from its installed base.
I've read this multiple times in this thread thus far and I don't buy it. PENTAX has a different customer base/following than other brands. Many grew up with and had a PENTAX as their first camera and have followed their progression while shooting with the current offerings or other brands. Reading through this 50+ page thread and multiple others on the forum and elsewhere I always see people saying they'll switch back; would love to come back to their roots if such a camera came to fruition or buy into a second system based on IQ, body features or lens line up not available with their current gear.

From Hoya's 2011 Annual Report
QuoteQuote:
"...the PENTAX 645D, the company's first-ever medium-format digital SLR, an internationally acclaimed model that won two prestigious camera awards in Japan and Europe, and the PENTAX K-5, a digital SLR for advanced amateur photographers, both continued to be well received as serious, technology-rich cameras, even by longtime PENTAX enthusiasts."
Since PENTAX Imaging is now a stand alone division, assuming $150,000,000 in revenue for 2010, 5% for FF results in $7.5Million or 2500 FF cameras if priced at $3000 a piece. That's not a lot of cameras. The 645D has surpassed 10,000 units since release at $10,000 a piece and the global market for MF is a lot less than 1% for total camera sales yet it is a huge payoff from brand recognition, consumer choice/selection and a big shot in the arm of revenue.

Due to the limited PENTAX product range in the DSLR and P&S class a FF addition would easily turn a profit for the company and sell well over 2500 bodies, if all the current limitations were remedied. The 645D is easily doing so, otherwise they would have discontinued it.


Nissan, for example, has invested millions into it's Leaf electric car, a gap in their lineup for only a small group of potential customers. The same company a decade ago was reporting huge losses, actually in the red for multiple years. So far for 2011 they've made over 4 billion in total profit. The Leaf didn't save the company, but designing vehicles with features and styling that people want did. They're not outselling Honda or Toyota and the Maxima may not be the best selling vehicle they have but it still sells alongside the Accord or Camry despite offering similarities with other vehicles in its class.

For now, it's all up to Ricoh.


...on with the thread.
10-31-2011, 11:28 PM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I don't think anyone here expects the FF to kill the KR on sales, but it's presence could actually sell more K5 since theoretically the K5 client is also the client most likely to see the value in an upgrade path to FF
Also there are the pros who wouldn't consider Pentax apsc because there was no FF and they want both, using the same lenses
This is just wishful thinking, IMHO. Very few DSLR buyers worry about "upgrade path"; especially when they realize most of the lenses cannot be used effectively in a FF camera.
As for halo product, the Sony FF certainly did not help them to sell the A390/A290. Only their introduction of SLTs and NEX cameras saved the day.
10-31-2011, 11:41 PM   #778
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
This is just wishful thinking, IMHO. Very few DSLR buyers worry about "upgrade path"; especially when they realize most of the lenses cannot be used effectively in a FF camera.
I think MOST Pentax users might have 1/4 or less of their lenses in the DA format.. even then some DA's are FF compatible (DA*55).. I think most people who get into Pentax will have their Kit lens + a few others.. some sure will have have damn near all the DA's but I'm pretty sure it will not account for MOST.. And releasing a DFA line of all their old FA good lenses would be a drop in the hat for R&D..
11-01-2011, 04:30 AM   #779
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
The *istD has room for a full-frame sensor (and it has a full-frame mirror)- so there's your answer


Ideally I'd like to see something *slightly* bigger, but still with the option of a removable grip so that grip haters aren't turned away by the body.
Thanks, Adam, you've made my day. Wish you'd come out with this earlier - the whole discussion might have taken a different direction.

I'm not so sure about RonHendriks's list of stuff to squeeze in that might enlarge the package. Haven't advances in miniaturisation since 2004 made the job easier? If not, and speaking only for myself, there are some items I can do without in order keep it nice and compact, and not exceeding the *istdD/DS. SR is nice to have but SLR photographers have coped without it for 5 decades and can now boost the ISO if necessary with a twirl of a thumbwheeel. The battery compartment (4xAA) is surely big enough. Dual card slot? Not sure why, with today's high capacity cards. I don't argue with the other points he makes, although the DS's viewfinder is spot-on as far as I'm concerned using APS-C. Would it be lacking with a FF sensor when the box and mirror were designed for FF and presumably the pentaprism too?

Times are hard and likely to get harder. Talk of FF at 3,000 is surely a non-starter. It must come in at under 1,000 to stand a chance. So start modest....
11-01-2011, 04:52 AM   #780
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
Thanks, Adam, you've made my day. Wish you'd come out with this earlier - the whole discussion might have taken a different direction.

I'm not so sure about RonHendriks's list of stuff to squeeze in that might enlarge the package. Haven't advances in miniaturisation since 2004 made the job easier? If not, and speaking only for myself, there are some items I can do without in order keep it nice and compact, and not exceeding the *istdD/DS. SR is nice to have but SLR photographers have coped without it for 5 decades and can now boost the ISO if necessary with a twirl of a thumbwheeel. The battery compartment (4xAA) is surely big enough. Dual card slot? Not sure why, with today's high capacity cards. I don't argue with the other points he makes, although the DS's viewfinder is spot-on as far as I'm concerned using APS-C. Would it be lacking with a FF sensor when the box and mirror were designed for FF and presumably the pentaprism too?

Times are hard and likely to get harder. Talk of FF at 3,000 is surely a non-starter. It must come in at under 1,000 to stand a chance. So start modest....
Really? Full frame for under 1500 dollars? As a camera company, why would you even bother? For it to make sense for Pentax/Ricoh, there has to be a premium price on it, I think a minimum of 3000 dollars. Otherwise, they are pretty much just committing suicide.
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