Originally posted by F-Stop I've read this multiple times in this thread thus far and I don't buy it. PENTAX has a different customer base/following than other brands. Many grew up with and had a PENTAX as their first camera and have followed their progression while shooting with the current offerings or other brands.
No different than other brands. None at all. Big myth.
Originally posted by F-Stop Since PENTAX Imaging is now a stand alone division, assuming $150,000,000 in revenue for 2010, 5% for FF results in $7.5Million or 2500 FF cameras if priced at $3000 a piece. That's not a lot of cameras.
Drop your estimate by about 30% to account for distribution and retailer margins putting you at less than 2,000 units per year through a global supply chain. And the problems with inadequate AF and far too few lenses to sell-through a complete system are going to limit sales even further.
And, if Pentaxians are super-loyal fans beyond other brands, then FF buyers would come at the expense of APS-C K-5 purchasers. Less demand for the K-5 = higher prices which makes that model a problem in the channel competitively.
Originally posted by Rondec Really? Full frame for under 1500 dollars? As a camera company, why would you even bother? For it to make sense for Pentax/Ricoh, there has to be a premium price on it, I think a minimum of 3000 dollars. Otherwise, they are pretty much just committing suicide.
Sony found that out despite and installed ex-Minolta base probably 3x larger than the current Pentax base. They cancelled the sub-$2,000 A850 due to the fact that lower price did zero to move the market. Then they cancelled the A900 because the market simply could not grow. Once you sell to your loyal crowd with a durable semi-"pro" model, continuing the sales streak for FF has proved problematic because most consumers do not see enough IQ difference to justify a $1,000 body premium, plus the substantial premium per lens. Not to mention the weight factor.
Anything sub-10,000 units per year is going to have to command a profit of close to $1,000 per body net to manufacturer. Then there's issues with low demand and sensor supply and the costs therein. Nikon buys sensors in bulk because they have 12x the market size of Pentax FF. Pentax will not be getting the same price per FF sensor Nikon does. That's just how the market works. Low volume = higher prices.
Originally posted by unfocused The *istD has room for a full-frame sensor (and it has a full-frame mirror)- so there's your answer
If you follow the tack of Pentax DSLR development (and pretty much all DSLR development from all suppliers) you see an increase ins size related to:
1) PDAF development. To get the Nikon and Canon effect, you need a bigger body to handle the larger array.
2) SR. It takes up space. Quiet a bit. Not only that, it probably requires a much more solid body than the *istD to anchor the SR against internal tremor. The Pentax Q:
3) Data dump. Every complaint about the older series DSLR's from any brand is the very slow data read-out. As the megapixels go up and the FPS and video are incorporated the classic electronics conundrum is reached whereby you need more pipes and bigger pipes, and heat increases commensurately requiring cooling systems or simple air space. The K10D rockets up in size likely because of SR and the need for added circuits to handle the data. There's a limit to miniaturization here. The Nikon D3x has 3 circuit systems to handle the high FPS and huge file sizes.
4) SDM. Another motor. More space.
5) WR. Every seal and baffle adds weight and mm. They add up.
6) Rear LCD. The *istD has a tiny 1.5" LCD. Bigger LCD's = more space. They've gotten marginally thinner in the last 7 years, but not by much.
All manufacturers have followed an identical track. Camera sizes have generally increased (especially mass) because consumers prefer features over compactness. Manufacturers try and retain these features and reduce size as best possible (K-5), but there are limits. This despite better batteries and the move to SD cards from CF. If you step back and look at the big market, you see why Olympus and Panasonic abandon the SLR format: they see it cannot get much smaller and they would have become a me-too DSLR makers with a smaller sensor and no cost advantage therein. Canon and Nikon models have actually increased in size since the original Rebel and D40, and sales have accelerated.
All you have to do is look at Pentax from the *istD line to the K10D where there is a 20% jump in weight and just under in size. And that's using APS-C sensors on a 135 k-mount. Since then Pentax has worked to miniaturize, but they are limited by the rear LCD, PDAF, SR, and data read-out circuitry. None of that can get substantially smaller unless you substitute tactile controls for a touchscreen system. and if the FF zooms are going to be large beasts, minor compactness in the body will do nothing to make the system stand out from Canikon.
Can you strip features to get to an inexpensive FF at sub-700 grams? Not if your competition is the Nikon D700/800 (and not their used market for sure). On the features, price, size, whole system grid, the vast majority of consumer preference is for features at x price. That's the value dynamic at work. That's why Sony is moving towards e-mount (an FF mount BTW) and the NEX-7. There is obviously consensus in camera engineering that if marketing says a camera body has to be
x size and
y mass, then the mirror/prism system has to go (Sony, M43, Fuji), or that an ILC system has to use a smaller sensor (Pentax Q, Nikon V1).