Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-01-2011, 09:14 AM   #796
Veteran Member
Emacs's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,223
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Exactly. What's the increase in IQ for double the price?
You will laugh, but the IQ increase will be up to 2.25 (I mean up to 2.25 times more details) at the wide angle, so …

11-01-2011, 09:41 AM   #797
Veteran Member
eddie1960's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,666
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

If you follow the tack of Pentax DSLR development (and pretty much all DSLR development from all suppliers) you see an increase ins size related to:

1) PDAF development. To get the Nikon and Canon effect, you need a bigger body to handle the larger array.
Agreed size will need to increase to support better AF, but likely not as much as you think

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
2) SR. It takes up space. Quiet a bit. Not only that, it probably requires a much more solid body than the *istD to anchor the SR against internal tremor. The Pentax Q:
Once again there is some truth here but you may be overestimating it

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
3) Data dump. Every complaint about the older series DSLR's from any brand is the very slow data read-out. As the megapixels go up and the FPS and video are incorporated the classic electronics conundrum is reached whereby you need more pipes and bigger pipes, and heat increases commensurately requiring cooling systems or simple air space. The K10D rockets up in size likely because of SR and the need for added circuits to handle the data. There's a limit to miniaturization here. The Nikon D3x has 3 circuit systems to handle the high FPS and huge file sizes.
This needs to be done no matter what Prime II is now to slow, next gen 645 will also need it and next gen apsc should also get it - cost spread over models . heat will increase and there will be a size penalty regardless

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
4) SDM. Another motor. More space.
Isn't the primary SDM motor in the lens?

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
5) WR. Every seal and baffle adds weight and mm. They add up.
they are already there in K5 which isn't much different from a D

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
6) Rear LCD. The *istD has a tiny 1.5" LCD. Bigger LCD's = more space. They've gotten marginally thinner in the last 7 years, but not by much.
Have you not hear of OLED it's wafer thin and better than lcd

In reality I think all people here expect FF to have a size penalty. Personally i think it won't be a lot different than the K10 and K20 which are quite large in comparison to the K7/K5 but not huge by any standard. The other thing to consider is not all people (particularly at this end of the market) are primarily concerned with size. That's an entry level market thing mostly and needs to be addressed with a MILC
Will the market support a Pentax FF. Well if they just launch it without adding some of the things needed for apsc even and continue on the current marketing strategy then they are dead in the water. I doubt that would be the way Ricoh who are very agressive about garning the market in their core industry would attack it. I would imagine if they are at all serious about the camera business then they will take a multi pronged attack. New product development, aggressive marketing, open new channels and pursue the competition. They weren't always the big rival to Canon in copiers they fought for it. Now that the copier business is in decline/stagnant they are looking at this to grow the business. If they just sit on the status quo nothing will change and in 2020 we'll still be talking about a new ff coming form Pentax next year (if there are any users left who want it that haven't bailed by that point)

It costs money to become a player, the original capital outlay was peanuts in the scheme of things so for Ricoh it is not unrealistic to expect to look at dumping at least the same amount or more into Brand development over the next while as a long term investment strategy
11-01-2011, 10:03 AM   #798
Veteran Member
Chex's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: The 'Stoke, British Columbia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,678
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I think it will move into outdoors and adventure photography. Smal(lish) rugget camera's that can take a drip. Even for that there is a market (need) for a better image quality camera then current K-5 can deliver.
There is still a neede for faster image processing and faster and better AF. So that development and the neede space in the camera is still demanded.
I hope this is where they are looking to take/make their market and R&D.. as long as some of their lenses are made to the same rugged standards.. FA Ltd's are a nice build, I'd even be ok with a touch of extra bulk on them if they were full WR'd lenses!
11-01-2011, 10:05 AM   #799
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,948
Pentax K20D:
142 x 101 x 70 mm
No battery: 715 g

Canon 5D MkII:
152 x 114 x 75 mm
No battery: 810 g

Nikon D700:
147 x 123 x 77 mm
No battery: 995 g

The bulk of the difference in height is the larger prism for FF. The D700 has a built-in flash, unique among FF cameras, adds more height.

The D700 is a true "pro"camera in the Nikon engineering sense. That explains some of the weight. Nikon cameras have always been weighty and many prefer it with the big FF glass.

The D700 has no SR, nor the Canon.

Both the Canon and D700 are 4 year-old bodies. It is 2 generations past the K20D in Pentaxland, demonstrating just how much more rapid the APS-C development cycle is.

The moment a camera gets up to the $2,000 price range all sorts of "pro" features, especially durability, become necessary to compare on the retail shelf. The market has decisively spoken that features trump compactness.

11-01-2011, 10:11 AM   #800
Veteran Member
Emacs's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,223
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Both the Canon and D700 are 4 year-old bodies. It is 2 generations past the K20D in Pentaxland, demonstrating just how much more rapid the APS-C development cycle is.
But they still can't match the FF IQ.
11-01-2011, 10:21 AM   #801
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,948
QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
But they still can't match the FF IQ.
Good enough for 95% of the market.

By the same token, the D700 hasn't the resolution of a 24mp APS-C...

...and it's bigger.

More IQ = bigger. 645D says so, right?

One way to look at it is that APS-C digital sensors are more than capable of matching the output of 135 film printed on 4x6 or 5x7 standard prints. That's the visual and economic benchmark. For the average Flickr or Facebook sharing APS-C is far more than adequate. The real bonus for a DSLR is the rapid AF and fast glass. They get the shot where a P&S or bridge camera fails.

Price, performance, features, IQ, size, accessories, all relate, but not one trumps the others. In a hierarchy of consumer preference (on the mean), I'd say the order I listed is pretty close.

The more people edit, the more they need, so more MP's and FF, and so on makes sense. At a certain point they get a Phase One. At a certain point I pull out my Mamiya and shoot 120 film!
11-01-2011, 10:32 AM   #802
Veteran Member
eddie1960's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,666
Medium format of course would be my ultimate goal but up front cost is crippling. a body with 1 lens will cost more than a FF with several lenses

Film cost kills me using my medium formats the way I do digital (i'd never shoot an action event with one the cost is too high)
I shoot on digital about 15000 pics a year now give or take
Too take good advantage of the format i will need a Nikon 9000 scanner . there's my FF body right there never mind film cost (to exceed FF capability i really need an imacon there's my 645D)
even if i reduce shooting to 50% of current levels 7500 shots at an average $15/roll with processing 15 frames per roll is $7500/year.

A $3000 FF body looks pretty cheap to me
Hell over 4 years a 645D looks cheap if I could finance at the right rate

11-01-2011, 11:32 AM   #803
Veteran Member
Emacs's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,223
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Good enough for 95% of the market.

By the same token, the D700 hasn't the resolution of a 24mp APS-C...
Well, I meant about lens effective resolution for given effective focal length, which tends to be 2.25 times superior on FF sensor. You should compare 16Mp D7000 vs 36Mp D800 in order to see this difference. But still relatively «low res» cameras will benefit from larger sensor with consistent 100% crop performance and image clarity.
11-01-2011, 12:03 PM   #804
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Taylor, Texas
Posts: 1,018
You could just do what I did and get a D700 (or the Canon). Then you don't have to worry about what Pentax (actually Ricoh) does or maybe is going to do. Just an idea.

The camera arrived today. It's a big one that's for sure. Thank goodness the 35, 50, and 85 are small. I'm wondering how often I'm going to want to carry this thing, but we'll see. :-) I've been using nothing but a GXR and X100 for the last few months so it was a bit of an eye opener.
11-01-2011, 12:45 PM   #805
Veteran Member
Emacs's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,223
QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I've been using nothing but a GXR and X100 for the last few months so it was a bit of an eye opener.
Mine was the Distagon 21. It is so huge and it clearly shew me I don't need 645D which I wanted to buy some time ago. Today I'm wating for the Pentax K-mount FF: this will raise that CZ price up to about $2500, I think Then I will sell this monster
11-01-2011, 12:58 PM   #806
Forum Member
Jan67's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Prague
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 84
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The market has decisively spoken that features trump compactness.
Can you explain, why do you think so? I am afraid, that there is no choice between features and compactness in FF now, except Leica M9.

Nikon and Canon FFs are oriented on pro customers, where size and weight doesn't matter. I, as a pure hobby consumer, have different priorities (big 100%OVF, focusing screen optimized for fast lenses etc. over high FPS, two card slots etc.) and could live even without video. I understand, that current technology implicates some minimum size and weight of the body, but there is definitely chance for improvement, at least in electronics.
I have no problem to wait, even several years, until the right product for me comes.
The main question is: am I just statistical error or represent much bigger group of customers ?

Your business case remains in pro domain with relatively small amount of sold pcs and high price > $3000. No wonder, that FF market is so small !!
I am still convinced, that "walk around FF camera" has a potential to address many enthusiasts from all brands and would be therefore sold in much bigger pcs.
11-01-2011, 01:06 PM   #807
Veteran Member
eddie1960's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,666
the biggest issues Jan67 is the features like video are really a software function and cost little to add so companies load up on software driven features to bring up the price so they can make the margins to support a lower volume product. A lot of people ask for stripped out models but if you are only going to have one it really needs to be pretty fully featured (leica is an anomaly as there market price has nothing to do with the rest of the market - Rangefinders have been a tiny niche for 30+ years now and are rarely affordable - Also never having been an RF company there is no reason for Pentax to pursue that under the Pentax name (Ricoh of course will support it through the GXR mountor)

I think at some point we will see more affordable FF(sub $1600 say) but not for a few years
11-01-2011, 02:30 PM   #808
Pentaxian
builttospill's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Utah, Idaho
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,392
QuoteOriginally posted by Jan67 Quote
Nikon and Canon FFs are oriented on pro customers, where size and weight doesn't matter. I, as a pure hobby consumer, have different priorities (big 100%OVF, focusing screen optimized for fast lenses etc. over high FPS, two card slots etc.) and could live even without video. I understand, that current technology implicates some minimum size and weight of the body, but there is definitely chance for improvement, at least in electronics.
I have no problem to wait, even several years, until the right product for me comes.
The main question is: am I just statistical error or represent much bigger group of customers ?

Your business case remains in pro domain with relatively small amount of sold pcs and high price > $3000. No wonder, that FF market is so small !!
I am still convinced, that "walk around FF camera" has a potential to address many enthusiasts from all brands and would be therefore sold in much bigger pcs.
Just as many people came to Pentax due to affordable pricing, I think you are right. If Pentax can launch an affordable, yet feature-rich (SR, WR, a Pentax surprise, etc.) FF camera it will sell.

However, as more than just an enthusiast I have a similar feature set wishlist as you do. I think pros have less need of video than a hobbyist with an SLR. At the top of my list is a BIG optical viewfinder. And as Eddie mentions, dual card slots is pretty much software too, and this feature would be nice. It may even help the camera stand out a little more.

I don't care if the camera is big or heavy, I just want it to focus accurately, have nice IQ, allow for easy manual-focus (big OVF) and not compete in the MP race.
11-01-2011, 03:46 PM   #809
Veteran Member
eddie1960's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,666
QuoteOriginally posted by builttospill Quote

I don't care if the camera is big or heavy, I just want it to focus accurately, have nice IQ, allow for easy manual-focus (big OVF) and not compete in the MP race.
As long as they don't hold back on the MP too much. it would kill it in the market - not to mention it may require buying old sensors that suffer in other areas. unless they are going to get into the sensor business they are at the mercy of off the shelf stuff (or committed to a supply that exceeds their needs)
11-01-2011, 04:30 PM   #810
Pentaxian
builttospill's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Utah, Idaho
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,392
Oh, and one more thing to add to my list: an uncrippled K-mount.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
aps-c, bodies, body, dslr, full-frame, lenses, lineup, pentax, system, users
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full frame pentax cem.kumuk Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 11-12-2010 03:13 PM
Pentax and Full Frame... Shutter-bug Photographic Technique 60 11-03-2010 10:03 AM
Pentax A 50/1.2 on Full Frame aegisphan Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 23 10-28-2010 04:16 PM
News Regarding Advertising on PentaxForums.com: An Official Statement Adam Site Suggestions and Help 5 03-24-2010 07:37 PM
Official: New DSLR Body is Coming; Full Frame Model is Under Planning! RiceHigh Pentax News and Rumors 78 08-04-2008 06:18 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:51 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top