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11-02-2011, 04:52 PM   #871
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And Pentax is somehow different?

It's not quite razors and razor blades, but it's pretty similar. You get 4 lenses and the company has you locked into a long-term customer experience. This will be no different with a Pentax FF DSLR.
The point was that Canon/Nikon are not redoing some of those lenses because the old ones were terrible - they were redoing them because they would like to resell the same lenses to the some of the same guys. You were implying that the fact that they were updating some lenses meant that 'lots' of 135 lenses would be bad on FF.

11-02-2011, 08:10 PM   #872
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The point was that Canon/Nikon are not redoing some of those lenses because the old ones were terrible - they were redoing them because they would like to resell the same lenses to the some of the same guys. You were implying that the fact that they were updating some lenses meant that 'lots' of 135 lenses would be bad on FF.
I was implying what has been stated before in many places that digital sensors are far less forgiving than film ever was. For the added outlay of a FF DSLR the lens system needs to be reworked to keep up with that technical reality. It's both a marketing function AND advancement of the optical and sensor alignment.
11-02-2011, 08:15 PM   #873
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Guess that extra $3K over a D700 buys something -->
11-02-2011, 09:19 PM   #874
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Guess that extra $3K over a D700 buys something --> link
I think in that case having a backup body would have been a good idea...

11-02-2011, 11:36 PM   #875
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Same exact finding here.
I have suspected that this is the case. Would you, be able to post any examples of photos taken with the same lenses of the same subjects on both full frame and aps-c bodies? It would seem to me that, despite the edge-sharpness issue, lenses designed to be used on full-frame sensors should inherently display the most resolution when used on full-frame sensors.
11-03-2011, 02:44 AM   #876
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
If your photos are likely to outresolve your media for viewing, you do not need FF

That kinda brings us to our senses. If true (I suspect it is for most of us), and an FF dSLR still cannot be produced for the price of a well-spec'ed FF film SLR, then in today's economic climate this debate is academic.

Perhaps Pentax should not be distracted from upping its APS-C game. It could start by plugging some obvious gaps in its glass line-up. A nice f2.4 or f2.8/16mm prime, please; and no dainty pancake either, I'd like something I can get hold of. At least I could then pretend I'm shooting 24mm on FF again.

If Pentax wishes to make forays into new 'form' territory I still recommend the X100/G12 approach in APS-C. Why leave it all to Fuji?

Last edited by unfocused; 11-03-2011 at 03:11 AM.
11-03-2011, 05:27 AM   #877
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused;1701851[FONT=Arial:
That kinda brings us to our senses. If true (I suspect it is for most of us), and an FF dSLR still cannot be produced for the price of a well-spec'ed FF film SLR, then in today's economic climate this debate is academic.[/FONT]
The Nikon F6 is $2,499 at B&H.

The Nikon D700 is $2,699 at B&H.

Both without lenses. The D700 ha a built-in flash.

They are virtually identical in size and in features given the different formats, but the D700 has superior AF. Maybe that's worth the $200.

Of course the price of film makes the F6 more expensive with each shot; the D700 is inverse.

QuoteQuote:
Perhaps Pentax should not be distracted from upping its APS-C game. It could start by plugging some obvious gaps in its glass line-up. A nice f2.4 or f2.8/16mm prime, please; and no dainty pancake either, I'd like something I can get hold of. At least I could then pretend I'm shooting 24mm on FF again.

If Pentax wishes to make forays into new 'form' territory I still recommend the X100/G12 approach in APS-C. Why leave it all to Fuji?
Pentax never made a rangefinder. In fact, they are pretty much unique as a manufacturer in that respect. There are severe limits to RF style cameras, such as no macro, very limited telecentricity, and problematic zooms due to fixed framelines in the optical component of the VF. Leica is apparently prepping something to compete with the X100. I suspect an over-priced APS-C model using M-mount.

For Pentax to go mirrorless it would make sense to mimic the DSLR functionality. But you lose the OVF. That's a showstopper for many. At that point you can get your WA 16mm more readily without the ginormous bulk. There is still the DA 14/2.8. A 16mm/2.4 would be nearly the size of the 14/2.8, which is nearly the size of the 12-24/4.

And let's face it. 24mm for landscape in 135 was always the tipping point towards medium format. The substitute now with digital is panorama stitching, a feature built in to many models, Sony in particular. In many ways it is more accurate and far less expensive than an optical solution. Get the 15mm/4, suffer your 1-stop loss and up the ISO. If you're nostalgic for a true 24mm from the good old film days, then you're probably not as nostalgic for the ISO limitations, much of which digital has solved. 400 ISO landscape on APS-C is more than acceptable given that almost no one in the "pro" film days would have used 400 speed film for such shots. Just a perspective to ponder.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 11-03-2011 at 07:24 AM.
11-03-2011, 07:05 AM   #878
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If Pentax feels the need to create a mirrorless FF, I'd at least like to see it in something classic like a rangefinder where there's still an OVF. There's just something organic about putting a piece of glass to your eye and seeing the actual scene. That being said, I would only consider buying one AFTER I have my FF DLSR, so if that's going to be their their only solution, I'm jumping ship. Having two FF digital cameras in Pentax's line up could work eventually, (Nikon has three, Canon has two, Sony is about to have two or three) but they first need to learn to walk before they can learn to fly.


Last edited by maxfield_photo; 11-03-2011 at 11:19 AM.
11-03-2011, 07:23 AM   #879
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
If Pentax feels the need to create a mirrorless FF, I'd at least like to see it in something classic like a rangefinder where there's still an OVF. There's just something organic about putting a piece of glass to your eye and seeing the actual scene. That being said, I would only consider buying one AFTER I have my FF DLSR, so if that's going to be their their only solution, I'm jumping ship. Having two FF digital cameras in Pentax's line up could work eventually, (Nikon has three, Canon has two, Sony is about to have two or three) but they first need to learn to walk before the can learn to fly.
I'll settle for one to start. I can't see Pentax doing the RF style. they were almost solely responsible for the decline of the RF and never made one. That being said now that it is Ricoh/Pentax Ricoh did make a few RF's but only compact fixed lens types not interchangeable lens. they were better know for TLRs before they moved to SLR (a TLR with a 4x4 or 6x6 sensor would be nice )

the third Sony is rumored to be a ff version of the nex 7 which would be highly appealing to a lot of people (particularly leica users who already seem to like the nex series on RFF)
11-03-2011, 07:30 AM   #880
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Guess that extra $3K over a D700 buys something --> link
Not sure that this demonstrates much. The same thing might happen with a K7, but then again it might not. I certainly wouldn't buy that camera after he mangled it like that, even if he swears up and down that its fine except for the piece that fell off. Electronics just don't do too well after hard falls...
11-03-2011, 07:33 AM   #881
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Not sure that this demonstrates much. The same thing might happen with a K7, but then again it might not. I certainly wouldn't buy that camera after he mangled it like that, even if he swears up and down that its fine except for the piece that fell off. Electronics just don't do too well after hard falls...
have to agree, electronics are way more delicate than the old mechanical stuff. i dropped my first SLR ( a Zenit) from 25 feet above the ice at a hockey game it hit the net (fortunately) and then bounced to the ice putting a small dent in the body. still worked perfectly. I don't own any digital that would survive that well (at minimum the lcd would get boffed)
11-03-2011, 07:39 AM   #882
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
400 ISO landscape on APS-C is more than acceptable given that almost no one in the "pro" film days would have used 400 speed film for such shots.
That made me smile. I still don't go this high except in emergencies. I'm pleased that on the K-7 I can set ISO at 100 and in most w/a situations I stay with it.

As regards the gap in the wide-angle line-up, the 12~24 is in my opinion too massive to take on long hikes (I have one), superb though it is, and for that reason the f4/15 has tempted me for a long time, but I'd be much happier with a 16 or 17mm with a bit more speed.

I quite agree that the X100 R/F route for APS-C limits macro and telephotography, but such a camera is likely to partner a dSLR, so even a well-chosen fixed prime would be acceptable. For me that would be a f2/40 or 45mm equiv rather than Fuji's 35.
11-03-2011, 07:57 AM   #883
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I have suspected that this is the case. Would you, be able to post any examples of photos taken with the same lenses of the same subjects on both full frame and aps-c bodies? It would seem to me that, despite the edge-sharpness issue, lenses designed to be used on full-frame sensors should inherently display the most resolution when used on full-frame sensors.
Will do, in the next couple days. I'll make sure to run the images through the exact same conversion, etc.
11-03-2011, 08:05 AM   #884
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
[FONT=Arial][SIZE=2]As regards the gap in the wide-angle line-up, the 12~24 is in my opinion too massive to take on long hikes (I have one), superb though it is, and for that reason the f4/15 has tempted me for a long time, but I'd be much happier with a 16 or 17mm with a bit more speed.
I can't recommend the 15ltd highly enough. It's perfect for that ^^ application, and optically it will really impress you. See this thread.

But for indoor, low light shooting, my tiny $77 Sigma 24mm f/2.8 Super-Wide II on the D700 often gets the call. The lens gets an extra stop of light, and the sensor gets an additional extra 2.5 stops over my K20D (only one stop over the K-5.) The FOV/DOF equiv combo on aps-c would be a 16mm f/1.8. The VF is huge. AF locks like a lightning strike. You can see why a Pentaxian who loves the aps-c Pentax offerings would still want some FF options in K-mount (as you do.)

That said, a new lens roadmap, faster AF and an SDM replacement would breath a lot of life into Pentax aps-c. I just hope Ricoh's willing to invest enough to bring those things in what's a one-tier format for them.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 11-03-2011 at 08:23 AM.
11-03-2011, 09:14 AM   #885
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Electronics just don't do too well after hard falls...
There's always a market...

G700SE / Digital Cameras | Ricoh Global

Despite its small size and light weight, the G700SE has strengthened glass at the lens front surface and body protectors added at strategic points. This toughness enabled it to withstand 2.0 m drops in 26 positions (6 surfaces, 8 corners, and 12 edges) in testing conforming to US Department of Defense “MIL Standard 810F.” Furthermore, it also passes this test with the power on.
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