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11-05-2011, 03:20 AM   #916
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Full Frame (or APS-H) in a small package!

Well I do realize that a camera that will pack more then a K-5 does needs to be bigger. But I don't believe that it isn't possible to make it small!

Looking at:


And making the grip integrated with the camera, just a little smaller then on this picture (wich can be done, since there is no separated connection between them) and don't make room for two battery's or a set of 6 AA's, but make room for one larger and more powerfull battery (more power then D-LI90 has to power up everything) then you still end up with a small camera

When K-5 messures: 131 x 97 x 73 mm (5.16 x 3.82 x 2.87") then you can make a K-1 (futuring a Full Frame of APS-H sensor) messuring 131 x 145 x 73 mm (5.16 x 5.71 x 2,87") futuring two sets of grips for landscape and portrait use. In this way there is for both grips the same space to the mount-housing giving the same workingway. Maybe still under 1 kg?

With only one battery inside, wich coult use a bigger space to carrie more power there is still a lot of extra room in the body to future more electronics and bigger AF-sensor. A second SDHC slot. Maybe even a little bigger screen on the back.

Is it small then?

When I look at 1D:

Wich messures 156 x 157 x 80 mm (6.14 x 6.18 x 3.15") and weights 1230 g (2.71 lb / 43.39 oz) then this K-1 is still very small.


Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 11-05-2011 at 11:26 AM.
11-05-2011, 03:33 AM   #917
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I think that would be a mistake. Better to go the 5D/D700 route and not have a built in grip.
11-05-2011, 06:04 AM - 1 Like   #918
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I'm not 100% sure Pentax needs a FF camera. They do need to improve several aspects of their product offering if they want to attract more pro-business. Their top of the line camera needs to be better than the 7D or D300s in terms of AF, and the SR needs to be much faster and provide at least 4-stops to be competitive with OIS systems.
Dead on! FF is a nice to have. I'd buy one. But Pentax has bigger problems to fix just to stay in business.
11-05-2011, 06:13 AM   #919
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QuoteOriginally posted by sandilands Quote
Dead on! FF is a nice to have. I'd buy one. But Pentax has bigger problems to fix just to stay in business.
18-month plan.

11-05-2011, 09:18 AM   #920
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
I think that would be a mistake. Better to go the 5D/D700 route and not have a built in grip.
Well just looked into D700:
147 x 123 x 77 mm (5.79 x 4.84 x 3.03") at weight 1074 g (2.37 lb / 37.88 oz).

With grip the D700 is about: 147 x 165 x 77 wich is a lot more then an upsized K-5 to house a full frame or APS-H sensor.

So that camera is of the same size as the way I looked at it, just different in design and not offering two controll way's.

The 5D:
152 x 114 x 75 mm (5.98 x 4.49 x 2.95") and in weight 850 g (1.87 lb / 29.98 oz) so that is smaller then D700 and my build in grip version, but also houses a smaller battery.

When you are looking at ways to cramp all electronics into a small as possible package then there are only a limited number of ways to do that. I think that with the build in grip and as small as possible giving as much as possible ergonomics would be a great way to get the job done.
11-05-2011, 10:56 AM   #921
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I will just say that after seeing last week a 5DmkII in the flesh with at 24-70 f/2.8 attached to it (a freakin' behemoth!) I'm glad I have a K-r. But I'll be even gladder with a FF that's anywhere near smaller than the Canikon counterparts.
11-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #922
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Just today I was shooting my 2 year old at a drop in gymnastics center with my K-5 + 24mm Tamron Adaptall f2.5 and a lady had 5DMII + 24-70 and a Canon 580 flash.. I sure thought for a 24-70 it was a little over-sized, especially when she was shooting @ 24 and her lens was about 10" long and 3 1/2 wide.. I was shooting @ 24 with a 1 1/2" long x 2-2 1/4" wide lens without a flash.. and she complained about her AF missing in the mediocre light.. I simply said "AF isn't Pentax's strong suite and I'm more than happy to manual focus anyways".. she sure didn't look comfortable carrying the rig around following her little one. My K-5 w/ older manual lens, I sure am not afraid to drop it on the floor mats to do a quick rescue if needed. Now if we only had that kind of confidence in a FF option.
11-05-2011, 04:47 PM   #923
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I don't want a unified grip and body but I see your line of thought. I suspect it would turn away some potential customers. For me that would relegate the camera to professional-only use because I wouldn't want to carry it around casually. Then for that size I'd want it to be as good as the D3s which I can't fathom Pentax pulling off in the next 18 months. Even if Pentax was able to manage that, the D4 would have arrived and raised the bar even further. Like chasing a ghost.

Also, where's the chatter about APS-H coming from? The only camera with one is the 1D Mark IV - Canon's own sensor - most likely to be retired when the 1D X arrives . Sony and Samsung aren't making APS-H. Pentax doesn't have a fab. I don't get it.


QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well just looked into D700:
147 x 123 x 77 mm (5.79 x 4.84 x 3.03") at weight 1074 g (2.37 lb / 37.88 oz).

With grip the D700 is about: 147 x 165 x 77 wich is a lot more then an upsized K-5 to house a full frame or APS-H sensor.

So that camera is of the same size as the way I looked at it, just different in design and not offering two controll way's.

The 5D:
152 x 114 x 75 mm (5.98 x 4.49 x 2.95") and in weight 850 g (1.87 lb / 29.98 oz) so that is smaller then D700 and my build in grip version, but also houses a smaller battery.

When you are looking at ways to cramp all electronics into a small as possible package then there are only a limited number of ways to do that. I think that with the build in grip and as small as possible giving as much as possible ergonomics would be a great way to get the job done.


11-05-2011, 05:23 PM   #924
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Not a fan of either the APS-H or integrated portrait grip for the Pentax FF camera myself either. It ought to follow Pentax's identity of compact, lightweight yet robust and capable cameras. It also should built on the utility of the current DA lenses that are FF compatible and expand with more DFA lenses. I wager the lens engineers are working out how feasible the current DA lenses are on a FF platform but it's certainly not an impossible feat even for Pentax's relatively small R&D department.
11-05-2011, 06:25 PM   #925
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I agree, I think the grip should be an attachment as the rest of Pentax's APS-C line up. If that's where extra features (GPS & Tethering etc) take up real estate and are excluded from the main body at a reasonable price.. I could see a full featured grip being pricey but to add in the other features it would be expected to cost more than JUST the grip being buttons & battery.
11-05-2011, 06:26 PM   #926
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Both or three options?

I'm a fan of the extra grip; it gives my two last fingers something to do, and lots of leverage shooting with heavier lenses. The grip and handstrap on my K20D never comes off.

But I can see the point of turning away customers based on size - so why not both?

K3 - FF, optional grip, K20D sized body (a little taller for the bigger prism), specs like the K-5, with the usual wish list of improvements (AF, 1/250 sync, etc, etc)

K1 - FF, integrated grip, pro specs, monster buffer - I miss my K10D's infinite jpeg shooting!

Any kind of FF would need a more spread out AF sensor arrangement, and faster processor(s), but I don't see this as a big stretch.

I held a K-5 again the other day, and snapped a few shots. I still found the buttons small and cramped, but not as bad as I first remember. I did like the deeper grip for the right hand, but I'd never buy one without the BG-4.
11-05-2011, 07:22 PM   #927
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I think the grip should be an add on. You really don't see many people with them. I just got a D700 and the thing is huge. I think it weighs something approaching 3lbs. I just cannot imagine putting a grip on it. I understand there are people who require this for work but I'm guessing they would get the higher end Nikon anyway.

An integral grip would probably put off a lot of buyers in the $2500 price range. It's just too much camera for what is still an non professional market segment.

Last edited by stanleyk; 11-05-2011 at 07:23 PM. Reason: spelling
11-05-2011, 08:46 PM   #928
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I would love a dedicated grip, one less thing for me to have to buy, but, given that folks seem to want compactness, a built in grip is out of the question on their first full frame. Maybe if the smaller version does well, then they may look into a second gripped body. My guess is that would require stealing quite a few users from Canon and Nikon.

What I would like to see is more functionality added with the grip. A second card slot would be great (not just a holder), and it might even be possible to squeeze in a separate image processor to give a bit more horsepower. Of course that would make for a more expensive grip, but it would give people an excuse to buy the proprietary one rather than a third party. Actually, if you had two card slots, you could in theory create a RAID array. A striped array would allow faster write times, so you'd be able to clear the buffer quicker and keep on burst shooting. What's a little intimidating about that is if one card gets corrupted, they're both lost. The 645D already has an option for a mirrored array, and that would at least speed things up on the playback side and it give you a backup, but it does nothing to help the write speed.
11-05-2011, 09:24 PM   #929
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I don't see why they couldn't add another SDHC slot, the GPS unit and a WiFi/tethering unit in the grip along with the battery. the GPS unit would be the biggest of those 3.. an eye-fi card is not very big and that tech would work fine! an SDHC slot is not all that much bigger than an SD card itself.. not sure about the GPS, but the one that you would slam on your shot shoe is a fair amount of bulk to add in. I just think if they give the FF body enough processing power and big enough buffer and improved AF.. the extra features that are "nice to have" but not everyone's "necessity" people would expect the grip to be $500.. but then your building your body via components to compete with the functions and performance of Canikon "pro" models.. for those who don't want the grip.. they get the performance of the pro models, just not all of the features. WIN WIN!

Then the cheap knock off companies who make grips will make a standard battery grip with no features others will pick up to extend shooting battery life and fill that gap, if Pentax doesn't release a bare bones model as well.
11-06-2011, 02:21 AM   #930
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The APS-H idea is coming from me. And I still think that is an excellent way to create a powerfull camera fro Pentax that will deliver more image quality and futures to our Pentax world in a relative small package.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well that new camera will be bigger than K-5 is, that I do believe. Partly why (next to the convenience of having some crop and thus not so large lenses needed) APS_H is appealing to me. It will drain battery's faster then K-5 does, so maybe instead of current D-Li90 a new battery, but just carrie a spare and you get along. AF is an important issue, since it does need a new approach to make AF-C workable. Maybe I'm sattisfied with single PRIME III that is just twice the speed that PRIME II delivers (that should be possible with new technoligy, since PRIME II design is from 2008/9).

So here's my crazy idea: MAKE TWO NEW CAMERA'S

So you design that new camerabody, with the big OVF, that new AF-module (also for al the other platforms APS-C and 645D), that new electronic design (faster processing and also for APS-C and 645D) and the new shutter (stil quiet please).

My preference is APS-H, but the idea is still the same for a Full Frame format sensor.

The base for this is an APS-H sensor of about 28-21mm with a surface of 588^2 mm and pixelsize of 7 microns or 4,75 microns.
  1. New Hi-iso performance (sports/action orientated) camera with big pixels and a resolution of 12 megapixel.
  2. New Hi-resolution performance (for those big prints) camera with pixels the size of current K-5 and a resolution of 26 megapixel.

Produce this camera in batches or like in car-industrie just as they come along in the productionfase. The only real difference between them fysical would be the sensormodule (and an extension on the name) that needs to be designed based on the same electronic lay-out and fysical size and connections.

They would run on different Firmware that makes one acting as a fast camera and the other slower (but that is also implied by the data read-out from the sensor, that is ofcourse slower with the sensor that carries more pixels.

The sports/action camera with up to 8 fps and the portrait camera maybe only up to 4 or 5 fps. This keeps the amount of datatstream to handle in the camera within reach of the possiblity's of a PRIME III processor.

How does that sound?

QuoteOriginally posted by MrPetkus Quote
I don't want a unified grip and body but I see your line of thought. I suspect it would turn away some potential customers. For me that would relegate the camera to professional-only use because I wouldn't want to carry it around casually. Then for that size I'd want it to be as good as the D3s which I can't fathom Pentax pulling off in the next 18 months. Even if Pentax was able to manage that, the D4 would have arrived and raised the bar even further. Like chasing a ghost.

Also, where's the chatter about APS-H coming from? The only camera with one is the 1D Mark IV - Canon's own sensor - most likely to be retired when the 1D X arrives . Sony and Samsung aren't making APS-H. Pentax doesn't have a fab. I don't get it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
I agree, I think the grip should be an attachment as the rest of Pentax's APS-C line up.
This is not an APS-C camera, so if you want more camera you do need to create space to put all futures in it.

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
K3 - FF, optional grip, K20D sized body (a little taller for the bigger prism), specs like the K-5, with the usual wish list of improvements (AF, 1/250 sync, etc, etc)

K1 - FF, integrated grip, pro specs, monster buffer - I miss my K10D's infinite jpeg shooting!
No idea if it can fit all your desired futures, but otherwise still possible. Only thing is that I don't believe that creating and having in production of two different camera-bodys next to the APS-C line is possible. Faster processing is the answer to making it possible to shoot jpg's until your card is full. Even K-7 had that future.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
An integral grip would probably put off a lot of buyers in the $2500 price range. It's just too much camera for what is still an non professional market segment.
It won't be cheaper then your mentioned $2500, so Pentax should look for customers that are willing to pay more then that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
I just think if they give the FF body enough processing power and big enough buffer and improved AF.. the extra features that are "nice to have" but not everyone's "necessity" people would expect the grip to be $500.. but then your building your body via components to compete with the functions and performance of Canikon "pro" models.. for those who don't want the grip.. they get the performance of the pro models, just not all of the features. WIN WIN!
Then your grip is not adding futures, but taking space that would be needed for electronics in the body. You maybe even want a second battery for all those futures, ending up with an even bigger camera then you want.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 11-06-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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