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11-06-2011, 08:53 AM   #931
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Ron,

I'm a big Pentax fan and still have a K5 for now, but Ricoh/Pentax absolutely does not have the lenses to compete with Canon or Nikon in the +$3000 market segment. It would take years for them to develop them. I think it would be awfully hard to make money selling a +$2500 FF body to existing users with bunch of old K mount lenses. It would be nice if they would do that and maybe it would make sense as a strategy to keep existing customers. It would really just depend on how many thousands of Pentax users would be willing to shell out +$2500 for a camera body.

I can see Ricoh/Pentax eventually releasing a Full Frame body, but they will probably have to do the lenses first. I'm not a zoom user but they need improve in that area to sell an expensive body in numbers that would make sense.

Personally, I don't think Ricoh/Pentax can compete against Canon or Nikon in this market segment but maybe they can. Go look at Nikon's FX lenses. The better ones cost more than the K5. They do a small selection of inexpensive prime lenses but from what I see (and I do think these guys know what they are doing), the money in FF seems to be in high end zooms which at this point Pentax has doesn't seem to have. Heck they don't even have lenses right now for the 645D.

I got a D700 but I only got the 35mm F1.4 (great lens), the 50mm F1.4 (cheap plastic), and the 85mm f1.8 (more plastic). I have an older Nikon 28mm AI which is a great lens so I'm all set. But I'd bet the vast majority of professional users out there probably want the 14-24, the 24-70, and the 70-200. That's $6000+ worth of lenses of which Ricoh/Pentax does not have anything comparable. I don't know but I'm guessing Canon is very similar. I didn't really look at Canon.

I had to sell off a bunch of other gear to get this so I sure hope I like using it. Right now it seems awful big and heavy. When I took my dogs out hiking this AM I looked at it and grabbed the GXR....... :-)


Last edited by stanleyk; 11-06-2011 at 08:54 AM. Reason: missing word
11-06-2011, 09:28 AM   #932
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
What's a little intimidating about that is if one card gets corrupted, they're both lost.
There's no need for the added complexity and risk of RAID if all you want is faster buffer clearing times when doing bursts, just write every other image to the extra card. A corrupted card loses you at most half your images, the cards still work in any reader, and it's just as fast.
11-06-2011, 09:54 AM   #933
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I'm a big Pentax fan and still have a K5 for now, but Ricoh/Pentax absolutely does not have the lenses to compete with Canon or Nikon in the +$3000 market segment. It would take years for them to develop them. I think it would be awfully hard to make money selling a +$2500 FF body to existing users with bunch of old K mount lenses.

Personally, I don't think Ricoh/Pentax can compete against Canon or Nikon in this market segment but maybe they can. Go look at Nikon's FX lenses. The better ones cost more than the K5. They do a small selection of inexpensive prime lenses but from what I see (and I do think these guys know what they are doing), the money in FF seems to be in high end zooms which at this point Pentax has doesn't seem to have. Heck they don't even have lenses right now for the 645D.

But I'd bet the vast majority of professional users out there probably want the 14-24, the 24-70, and the 70-200. That's $6000+ worth of lenses of which Ricoh/Pentax does not have anything comparable.
Maybe I did make a calculation mistake, since here a 5D costs 1799 euro and a D700 for 1899 euro (both at the cheapest online store). That should make this camera maybe possible for those $ 2500.

One other thing is not to go and compete against Canikon, but start creating your own niche market. When I look at outdoors and adventure market as a target, then they also would want better image quality and hi-er resolution to some extend. Where size and weight does matter to them. So I think that for the future of Pentax it is essential to offer a camera that can be considdered as a "professional" camera and not only in the "prosumer" market.

Some new lenses are needed, but a few of them can be made starting from an older design and giving them some nice new futures (SDM-II, manual overwrite, fast AF, new lenscoatings and a new housing). I think thst D-FA* 28-70mm/f2.8 and D-FA 80-200mm/f2.8 are the once to make first. I do think that working with Tokina can solve the issue for wide-angle at start.

New designed AF-module and a faster image processing system (PRIME III, or for this camera maybe even dual prime III) are essential to have a market for Pentax dslr in 5 years time. Making some compromises to make this camera not to expensive are also possible, as long as the base is that this is an excellent camera (just not in the same league as 1Dx/D4 that will cost at least double).
11-06-2011, 10:19 AM   #934
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I'm not Ron, but going to jump in here anyway, excuse the intrusion...

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Ron,
I'm a big Pentax fan and still have a K5 for now, but Ricoh/Pentax absolutely does not have the lenses to compete with Canon or Nikon in the +$3000 market segment. It would take years for them to develop them.
Assuming Hoya was an un-interested in Pentax as is the rumor, I'd have to sadly agree. But I'd hope they are busy right now dusting off the older designs and drafting up SDM II. Two years? Maybe. Let's hope for 1 year!

I'm on my fifth 50-135 now; the last repair was out of warranty and cost over $500. Ouch - I'm not doing that again; when it dies (and it will), I'll probably crack it open and epoxy the snot out of the quick shift so it at least MF's.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I think it would be awfully hard to make money selling a +$2500 FF body to existing users with bunch of old K mount lenses. It would be nice if they would do that and maybe it would make sense as a strategy to keep existing customers. It would really just depend on how many thousands of Pentax users would be willing to shell out +$2500 for a camera body.
Don't stop at $2500. Maybe for a low-spec K-3; sure, but a K-1? $6000 MSRP to not cannibalize the 645D too much. Counting the FF lenses they have now I think we are ok if it was released tomorrow.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I can see Ricoh/Pentax eventually releasing a Full Frame body, but they will probably have to do the lenses first. I'm not a zoom user but they need improve in that area to sell an expensive body in numbers that would make sense.
I think they should do a combined release (body+lenses). They do badly need fast FF zooms to be taken seriously.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Personally, I don't think Ricoh/Pentax can compete against Canon or Nikon in this market segment but maybe they can.
Didn't they say in some official press or announcement that this is their stated goal? Funny they didn't mention Sony in that same breath

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Go look at Nikon's FX lenses. The better ones cost more than the K5. They do a small selection of inexpensive prime lenses but from what I see (and I do think these guys know what they are doing), the money in FF seems to be in high end zooms which at this point Pentax has doesn't seem to have. Heck they don't even have lenses right now for the 645D.
Can't argue there!

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I got a D700 but I only got the 35mm F1.4 (great lens), the 50mm F1.4 (cheap plastic), and the 85mm f1.8 (more plastic). I have an older Nikon 28mm AI which is a great lens so I'm all set. But I'd bet the vast majority of professional users out there probably want the 14-24, the 24-70, and the 70-200. That's $6000+ worth of lenses of which Ricoh/Pentax does not have anything comparable. I don't know but I'm guessing Canon is very similar. I didn't really look at Canon.
I've looked at both, and the 645D; as you noted there aren't a lot of new lens options for the 645D, so the investment is the same any way you go; about $12k. But for a full time pro there are more options, like renting for commercial shoots; the rulebook doesn't say you have to own every lens you need, but a few go-to lenses are good idea.

I'm a part-time pro and my annual gear budget is about $2k. This year I picked up two FF lenses, the old 50/1.4 and a Sigma 70-200, plus a 30/1.4 that I think is a crop (didn't test it). So I'm done with buying crop lenses; in fact I'm done with buying K-mount bodies or glass until they do FF. If they don't I may jump ship, or if they expand the 645D lens line, I may go that way.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I had to sell off a bunch of other gear to get this so I sure hope I like using it. Right now it seems awful big and heavy. When I took my dogs out hiking this AM I looked at it and grabbed the GXR....... :-)
Get the hand-strap; I hate neck straps, but with a hand strap you are good for hours and hours and hours.

11-06-2011, 11:05 AM   #935
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Noser-

I'm all over the hand strap. Do you have one you can recommend?

You have a great point on the rental lenses which I hadn't really thought of.

I haven't decided on the K5 yet. To be honest I was and am perfectly happy with the GXR + X100. I had a specific reason I went for the D700. If the D700 works out for me, I will probably sell off the Pentax gear at some point. For general hiking with the dogs, I find the GXR perfect.

I stil would contend that if Ricoh/Pentax wants to go pro with a DSLR, then they will have to make a large commitment to hightquality F2.8 zoom lenses + a very good 85mm F1.4. The smarter business decision in the short term would probably be to build on the 645 platform.

Sony cameras to me are kind of strange. I think the NEX cameras are great, but they don't have the lenses yet. They probably made the sensor in the NEX 7 to big (as in megapixels). I honestly think they are geared more for video than stills. Yes, I know you can adapt lenses. I went through a lens adapting craze with MFT. In the end, I found myself using the ones made for the mount. I think undoubtedly there are a lot of people who enjoy doing this, but I wasn't one of them. To me Ricoh has the right idea with their LTM module. If I hadn't take the plunge with the D700 I would have gone with that and Voigtlander 50.

I think the D700 once I spend a couple of weeks with it will be a good investment though. I need to start using it soon, because I have something I have to shoot in 3 weeks. Hand strap right..... :-)
11-06-2011, 12:31 PM   #936
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If Pentax wants to be in the FF market their first entry will target the wedding and portrait crowd. They don't need bazooka size glass of machine gun frame rates. They need 4 really good lenses to meet the needs of that crowd. The 85mm and 135mm are bread and butter and a really good 24-70 f/2.8 covers most needs in this class.

25MP FF sensor
21 point AF with decent speed and really good accuracy is all you need.
2 SD card slots.
Flash sync of 1/250
5 frames per second
100% VF (BIG x BIG)

Bring back updated versions of the:
FA* 85mm F/1.4
A* 135mm F/1.8
FA* 28-70 F/2.8

New AF motor - faster/quieter/more reliable.

Other lenses could come out over time and legacy glass can fill a few voids, but those three would be pretty easy to put out with a new FF and would appeal to the majority of FF users. If we do see Pentax enter the market I think this is the path they take.

Of course a FF EVIL would make some waves and get the attention of a lot of serious photographers. If Pentax really wants to be interesting this is the most interesting path to take.
11-06-2011, 01:13 PM   #937
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Of course a FF EVIL would make some waves and get the attention of a lot of serious photographers. If Pentax really wants to be interesting this is the most interesting path to take.
If Pentax really wants to make me jump ship, giving up on OVFs is the path to take
Otherwise, I agree with you - they would need an affordable "enthusiast" DSLR, not a huge, heavy, utterly expensive machine gun pro monster.
FF or not, I believe they should launch new star lenses with ring-type (or similar - they had a very interesting patent) SDM.
11-06-2011, 01:21 PM   #938
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I'm a big Pentax fan and still have a K5 for now, but Ricoh/Pentax absolutely does not have the lenses to compete with Canon or Nikon in the +$3000 market segment.
How many of those lenses do they have to support a $10,000 camera?

11-06-2011, 01:31 PM   #939
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If Pentax wants to be in the FF market their first entry will target the wedding and portrait crowd. They don't need bazooka size glass of machine gun frame rates.

25MP FF sensor; 21 point AF with decent speed and really good accuracy; 2 SD card slots; Flash sync of 1/250; 5 frames per second; 100% VF (BIG x BIG)

Bring back updated versions of the:
FA* 85mm F/1.4; A* 135mm F/1.8; FA* 28-70 F/2.8; New AF motor - faster/quieter/more reliable.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Otherwise, I agree with you - they would need an affordable "enthusiast" DSLR, not a huge, heavy, utterly expensive machine gun pro monster.
FF or not, I believe they should launch new star lenses with ring-type (or similar - they had a very interesting patent) SDM.
Well I do agree on some of the things.

- Except for the AF. There is no future for Pentax when they don't get there AF (fast, accurate and with a trackingfunction) in order. Who will buy in a few years time such a camera when there are by that time cheap camera's that can already do that to some degree.
- Wile you may not want or need that machinegun, there is no manufacturer of sensors that makes slow CMOS sensors since they all have to be (to some degree) speedy to support video. You mention 5 fps, that was before K-7 very speedy, and now you think that would be normal!

That affordable enthousiast camera is called K-5, it just needs some tweeking in a K-5 Super or K-3 body.
11-06-2011, 01:31 PM   #940
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
How many of those lenses do they have to support a $10,000 camera?
About 16.

Ron, I agree the AF must be improved; and not only it's performance. The current 11 AF point SAFOX is made for APS-C (you can see that clearly on the 645D - all AF points are gathered in the center). They were able to use the same AF system on both APS-C and 645D because the medium format cameras mostly have single point AF systems; but SAFOX IX+ would look ridiculous compared to the D700's.
I was talking about an enthusiast FF DSLR camera, something on the 5DMkII/D700 (make that their successor's) level; in contrast to a pro FF DSLR camera like the D3x and EOS series 1.

Last edited by Kunzite; 11-06-2011 at 01:41 PM.
11-06-2011, 02:27 PM   #941
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jodokast96 Quote
How many of those lenses do they have to support a $10,000 camera?
I could be wrong but I thought the D3 was a $5000-$5500 body. Does Nikon make a $10,000 body? I really don't know.

I still contend that Pentax doesn't have any lenses as good as the Nikon 14-24, 24-70, or 70-200. The closest thing is probably the 50-135 which I do own. It's a good lens but the mechanics are very shoddy. That said it's half the price of those other lenses.

I'm not a professional photographer (as in taking photos for a living, nor would I really want to), but I do think that if I was making my living off photography I would want lenses in that category. I'm sure if Ricoh has the resources and the desire they can make them though.

The one thing Pentax does have is very well made small prime lenses which is the only reason I haven't dumped the brand yet. I do enjoy using the DA Limited lenses.

Either way it doesn't really matter to me. I have now invested in Nikon and wouldn't buy into another DSLR system or any Pentax lenses in the near term. Maybe in 3-4 years I will re evaluate it.

Personally the one thing I am very interested in is the new Fuji coming out next year.
11-06-2011, 07:01 PM   #942
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Noser-

I'm all over the hand strap. Do you have one you can recommend?
For the K20D + grip this works great:

PENTAX - DSLR Leather Hand Strap

I use it two ways; the 'correct' way, where it captures your wrist at the base of the hand, and the 'wrong' way, just as a strap; if you keep your fingers curled a bit around the battery area it's still hard to drop

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
You have a great point on the rental lenses which I hadn't really thought of.

I haven't decided on the K5 yet. To be honest I was and am perfectly happy with the GXR + X100. I had a specific reason I went for the D700. If the D700 works out for me, I will probably sell off the Pentax gear at some point. For general hiking with the dogs, I find the GXR perfect.
I actually got into Pentax with the K10D for hiking; I was all ready to get the K100D, but I waited a bit to get the K10D with it's weather sealing and fuller features. But on some trips it's a bit much, especially on scrambles and high elevations/ice.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I stil would contend that if Ricoh/Pentax wants to go pro with a DSLR, then they will have to make a large commitment to hightquality F2.8 zoom lenses + a very good 85mm F1.4. The smarter business decision in the short term would probably be to build on the 645 platform.
A fast 85 is the one prime I don't have and they absolutely need to make. I was drooling over the 'FA 77 vs DA70' threads just yesterday, but on a crop I have to settle for the 50/1.4, and really it's not the same. I do have a 50/1.2, but it does lose enough sharpness at 1.2 that it really suits a different purpose (close up beauty shots), not at all what the 85's should be doing on FF.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Sony cameras to me are kind of strange. I think the NEX cameras are great, but they don't have the lenses yet. They probably made the sensor in the NEX 7 to big (as in megapixels). I honestly think they are geared more for video than stills. Yes, I know you can adapt lenses. I went through a lens adapting craze with MFT. In the end, I found myself using the ones made for the mount. I think undoubtedly there are a lot of people who enjoy doing this, but I wasn't one of them. To me Ricoh has the right idea with their LTM module. If I hadn't take the plunge with the D700 I would have gone with that and Voigtlander 50.

I think the D700 once I spend a couple of weeks with it will be a good investment though. I need to start using it soon, because I have something I have to shoot in 3 weeks. Hand strap right..... :-)
I played with the D700 for a few minutes and liked it. One comment I've heard from Nikon shooters is that the camera doesn't get in their way and it's natural to use... I guess they are saying they like the egronomics - something I don't hear from Canon shooters much.
11-06-2011, 07:44 PM   #943
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If Pentax wants to be in the FF market their first entry will target the wedding and portrait crowd. They don't need bazooka size glass of machine gun frame rates. They need 4 really good lenses to meet the needs of that crowd. The 85mm and 135mm are bread and butter and a really good 24-70 f/2.8 covers most needs in this class.
I hope so, that's me!

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
25MP FF sensor
21 point AF with decent speed and really good accuracy is all you need.
2 SD card slots.
Flash sync of 1/250
5 frames per second
100% VF (BIG x BIG)
I'd be ok with 18MP if it means super clean high ISO.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Bring back updated versions of the:
FA* 85mm F/1.4
A* 135mm F/1.8
FA* 28-70 F/2.8
A 70-200 is needed at the other end of that 28-70. And something really wide. But now I just sound greedy :P

< snip >

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Of course a FF EVIL would make some waves and get the attention of a lot of serious photographers. If Pentax really wants to be interesting this is the most interesting path to take.
Ugh. EVF? Pass! (But if it happens I won't be all that surprised; you may be right. And I won't be a Pentax shooter.)
11-06-2011, 08:37 PM   #944
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I hope so, that's me!
That would meet the needs of a lot of people.


QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I'd be ok with 18MP if it means super clean high ISO.
If Pentax were to cut APS-H sensors out of the same wafers that produce K-5 sensor you would have a 19MP APS-H sensor. APS-H will still work with most the DA* lenses although SR might be an issue. FF 25MP would meet the needs of most serious Landscape/Portrait/Wedding togs. IT would appeal to the biggest single slice of the FF crowd.
Personally I would like to see Pentax move up from APS-C to 4/3 or 5/4 format sensor with a surface area of 550mm^2.


QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
A 70-200 is needed at the other end of that 28-70. And something really wide. But now I just sound greedy
I'm sure a D-FA* 80-200mm would be released. There is a Sigma and Tamron version that could fill the market until Pentax is able to bring one to the market. Having Sigma and Tamron options as well as older FA* lenses on the used market means that lenses would not be a huge issue. Pentax could take their time and get it right. The new Sigma 70-200 HSM OS is a pretty decent lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
Ugh. EVF? Pass! (But if it happens I won't be all that surprised; you may be right. And I won't be a Pentax shooter.)
The EVF wont replace the OVF in the near future, but Pentax needs to be designing for the future. If Pentax would put a FF equivalent of the E-P3 on the market they would sell a bunch with the right glass. The new 12mm f/2 and 45mm f/1.8 have me looking at m4/3 as a serious option. The m4/3 sensor is just as good as the K-7 sensor and in a smaller package, with faster more accurate AF.

Ricoh has only owned Pentax for one month and people are already expecting big things and being impatient.
11-06-2011, 08:43 PM   #945
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Noser- THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd go with the DA 70. The 77 is a great lens but I think it's overpriced for what it does.

If they are going to do Full Frame they will have to make a 70-200. Not my kind of lens but for most Full Frame shooters I think it's considered essential. They could do a 24-70 as a compliment. Once you get below 24 not as many people are needing that wide of an angle. I would also say they need an inexpensive 50mm F1.4 or 1.8 and definitely an 85mm F1.4 or 1.8. I like the 35mm FOV but I'm not sure it's as popular as it was a long time ago (when I was a young, a long, long time ago.....).

You just have to have an 85mm for portrait shooters which covers a lot of ground. I got one for a dog project I'm starting. I need to start using the camera though so I can get used to it. I'm going on Adorama to see if they have a strap for Nikon (it will probably cost more.....sigh..................).

Thanks again for you help!!!

Also- I think even Canon realized that 20+ megapixels is too many. They should have used a 16 megapixel sensor in the NEX 7. I think maybe the larger sensors are better for video? Not sure, I'm not a very technical person. Anyway, in the end I chose the Nikon because of the auto focus compared to the Canon. Some dogs are not good at posing. :-)
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