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11-08-2011, 12:15 PM   #1036
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i realise this but you keep ignoring that i mentioned that market. i also think most of that market would not even look at Pentax without bigger change than can possibly happen short term.
introducing an affordable FF CCD Dslr no AA filter 4 colour processing 8fps targeting people looking for image quality first and not interested in video is an ignored market and a good place to start. second Ff can be the CMOS bells and whistle one as the company grows and has the lens line available. apsc can become the entry / milc line and apsh can replace the k5 so all those da lenses are still relevant for an intermediate shooter

I probably missed one big market - corporate video and i imagine the 5d does well here.

neither Pentax nor Ricoh though seem to have shown any serious interest in video so far the k7/k5 being me too add ons. Neither had been in the video business either wheras Canon has been a serious video player for a very long time. Canon has long been Sony's biggest competitor. There are also a hell of a lot of video specific cams (Many with interchangeable lenses) in designs far more suited to shooting. more expensive than a 5d but cheap compared to the red etc. (Sony/Panasonic/JVC/Canon all make pro cameras specifically for HD with full control and both with fixed zooms and interchangeable lens setups) the 5D is the budget entry to this. not the ideal but the affordable. in reality by the time you kit it out to be a full fledged video unit you start approaching the low end of the pro camcorders. As a second camera to get specific effect the others can't it's pretty good but there are still better ways of shooting video.

11-08-2011, 12:28 PM   #1037
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Going from

to a serious video camera in modern times is one bridge to far I think.

On the other hand not having a video-option is also a missing. When I look at a two forums that I'm a member of there are besides myself only a few people that sometimes have used the video-option of the K-5.
11-08-2011, 12:28 PM   #1038
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OK, so Pentax should tie it's fate to the ex-Kodak sensor division's? Is that smart?
Should they make a no-video (LV would be missing as well) camera just to make sure most of the potential customers (already few in numbers) would chose another brand instead? I don't care about video, by the way (but LV is handy).
Should they make a mirrorless without CD-AF?
I'm afraid a Pentax FF would have a CMOS sensor - with video and insanely high ISO even if that means sacrificing low and mid-ISO image quality. Which would be a pity, but they don't have much of a choice.

I do not believe Ricoh would buy Olympus (well, I hope Olympus will survive). Their money would be better spent on growing Pentax, rather than supporting 5 incompatible lines of cameras (Ricoh's GXR, Q, K-mount, 645D, m4/3) and even adding a 6th - a "FF".
If they won't survive (again, I hope they do) Pentax could hire some of those excellent engineers, maybe even buy some patents.

And about those "serious video cameras" - please, take a look at how much they cost. The Canon C300 is $20.000 and the zoom lenses, $45.000 and $47.000.
11-08-2011, 12:36 PM   #1039
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they are already tied to that division for the 645D Kunzite.
and as it's been sold to someone with the cashflow to operate it correctly then it shouldn't be a worry. it was more worrisome when Kodak owned it to be realistic. now that it is sold there is less worry about a source for the 645d and it's eventual replacement model
whether they went to them for a FF sensor is another issue.
Personally i like the idea of a CCD FF 4 colour sensor. if they can do it at a price low enough it will sell (and not just to current owners)
Unfortunately they will likely try to be all things to all people when they release the FF and by doing so will be more expensive and likely end up being just some things to all people. the CCD unit could be positioned as the photographers FF. A Cmos could follow as the Videographers FF (meanwhile the lens line could have grown to support the CCD model
Aping Canon is not the way to win the battle initially. Differentiating the line with something that holds appeal to many is.

EDIT: I agree Oly would be a bad idea. If the price was right though it might not be. there is already more market share than pentax there
I'm not surprised to see there have been 20 years worth of loses hidden though. As much as I like Oly they really haven't done well in a long time and have introduced some really horrible product
I was a big OM fan but after that they really didn't hold my attention. the E1-3-5 are all very nice with great lenses but are now orphans thanks to the m43 move. the pens are great as a consumer item and really opened the market, but since then they've struggled to move forward lacking the sensor improvements. Pana has been killing them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pana but the camera division though and consolidate m43

11-08-2011, 12:55 PM   #1040
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Just realized Canon 5D mark II can be obtained for less than $2500 (that is a K5+Kr price combined).... and lately I am looking back at the photos I took with K200d and comparing them with K5, K5 really gave much better photo and flexibility in post-process. so...I start lusting for Full-frame (as I am sure it will give better photo than K5).... I would guess, in 1-2 yrs, my lust for full-frame will outgrow my loyalty to Pentax camera, and I will likely jump to another system.

I know most people just stop at entry-level dSLR and only few of those buyers like myself, really found love in photography using dSLR will eventually wanting more and more....

So I really hope Ricoh/Pentax to come out with a Full-Frame camera, for $2500-$3000, I can save up for it. (No, I can't justify myself with the 645d...)

Lee
11-08-2011, 01:02 PM   #1041
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Platinum Equity and Ricoh have connections!

Just looking into things and found an already very early connection between Platinum Equity that just took over Kodak's sensor plant and Ricoh dating back to 2000!

e.Digital Corporation(EDIG) - Embedded Digital Technology Message Board - Msg: 14910130

I know this doesn't mean squad, but there are bussiness relations from the past, so why not into the future.
11-08-2011, 01:14 PM   #1042
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Eddie:
IMO they should have a backup option (if the sensors become unavailable or not competitive) - for the 645D, there is Dalsa. For APS-C they were able to jump to Samsung and back to Sony. Even for FF, they could have Sony; but APS-H?

So being feature rich means "aping Canon"... what's the solution, then? Not having what Canon have? This, I'm afraid, won't work - it's suicide; no one would pay $$$$ for "crippled" cameras. If they can't have a certain feature, something else must be offered instead. Most people are mislead to want as many features as possible; would they buy a camera with less than a billion ISO, no full-HD movie and other such things?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure I'll be able to resist to a CCD "FF" (or even APS-H) beauty if it'll close the gap to the 645D. I wish for LV though, it really helps with focusing in some cases.

Yes, I'm afraid Pana would kill a Ricoh m4/3 too. Fortunately (for the users), no matter what will happen m4/3 will survive.
11-08-2011, 01:24 PM   #1043
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
IMO they should have a backup option (if the sensors become unavailable or not competitive) - for the 645D, there is Dalsa. For APS-C they were able to jump to Samsung and back to Sony. Even for FF, they could have Sony; but APS-H?
Well I know people see the problem of who is going to produce an APS-H sensor, but if you go to a manufacturere that makes sensors of a different size, they just can make it to your size. Making the K-5 sensor bigger or downsizing a Full Frame sensor isn't the hardest part in development. It is more expensive, but when that camera is twice+ the price of K-5 at start that wont be the biggest problem.

11-08-2011, 01:37 PM   #1044
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"but when that camera is twice+ the price of K-5 at start" - and that is precisely the biggest issue. Who would pay FF prices for APS-H?
11-08-2011, 01:40 PM   #1045
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And about those "serious video cameras" - please, take a look at how much they cost. The Canon C300 is $20.000 and the zoom lenses, $45.000 and $47.000.

It's expensive. That's why using DSLRs for shooting video has exploded in popularity. You get comparable quality at a fraction of the price.
11-08-2011, 01:44 PM   #1046
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"but when that camera is twice+ the price of K-5 at start" - and that is precisely the biggest issue. Who would pay FF prices for APS-H?
but if it was a FF K5 with the expected upgrades that will happen even in apsc for $3000 then it is less of an issue
the h option has the advantage of the da lenses all likely working without issue (with the possible exception of the 14) so no need to have new lenses ready to go at the same time
if it can come in at 2500 (less than half K5 launch and lower than D800 5D II will launch at then it's a differnt story
Issue again falls back to it needs to be cmos at that price to support video
no video with a sub $2000 price is a different story and a definite market
11-08-2011, 01:48 PM   #1047
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Eddie:
IMO they should have a backup option (if the sensors become unavailable or not competitive) - for the 645D, there is Dalsa. For APS-C they were able to jump to Samsung and back to Sony. Even for FF, they could have Sony; but APS-H?.
You realize that APS-H sensor can be made out of the same wafers that make APS-C. Take the wafers used to make the 16MP APS-C and make 19MP APS-H sensors. Yes there is a setup cost involved for the photolithography and mask, but it is not significant for any kind of volume, and APS-H can be done in a single process where FF requires multiple masks and photolithography. APS-H is still cheaper than FF.

There is nothing magical about 135mm format. It was a compromise from the film era that became popular due to cost and portability. It is by no means an ideal format or size for photography.
11-08-2011, 02:16 PM   #1048
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"APS-H is still cheaper than FF." - That's precisely my point; if they'll go APS-H (I doubt they will) that camera must be priced significantly lower than FF. If a good&cheap enough sensor is available, I believe they could be successful by offering APS-H as an alternative to the competition's high end APS-C (better image quality instead of trying to keep up with pure performance).
Even so, it's a gamble - what would people say about it? "better IQ for slightly more $$ than APS-C" or "for a few $$ more, one could get a FULL frame"?
11-08-2011, 02:30 PM   #1049
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
APS-H is still cheaper than FF.
Production, yes. Marketing, APS-H doesn't even get out of the gate.

QuoteQuote:
There is nothing magical about 135mm format. It was a compromise from the film era that became popular due to cost and portability. It is by no means an ideal format or size for photography.
All formats are subjective and relative.

What financially matters most is what works best with patents and current optical designs.

We've seen the format vs. price battle before. 4/3 vs. APS-C. The smaller 4/3 went nowhere until repackaged without the mirror, effectively abandoning Olympus customers.

What is Pentax going to do? Support the current APS-C DSLR optics, retain their folio of FF optics, add in the 645D and Q optics, and add a new APS-H line of optics? Do you really think the Tamron's, Sigma's, and Zeiss's will support an APS-H dedicated Pentax mount?

No. APS-H is a dog that won't hunt.
11-08-2011, 02:36 PM   #1050
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"APS-H is still cheaper than FF."
Well, a bit of an old article, and probably some things have changed, but i guess that the basics are still the same. Less loss on a wafer when there are more cuts out of the surface:The Economics of Digital Photo Sensors

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
What is Pentax going to do? Support the current APS-C DSLR optics, retain their folio of FF optics, and add a new APS-H line of optics? Do you really think the Tamron's, Sigma's, and Zeiss's will support an APS-H dedicated Pentax mount?

No. APS-H is a dog that won't hunt.
Well Zeiss and Tamron already left the building, so no worry's about them at the time.

All lenses suitable for Full Frame can performe just a little better on APS-H since you don't use the outer corners. Don't make lenses for APS-H, make them for Full Frame. The future will bring what it may bring.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 11-08-2011 at 02:50 PM.
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