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11-10-2011, 07:46 AM   #1096
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That's a useful website (added to bookmarks). I love the density, shape, and size of the K5 but in this context it really looks like a superior product compared to it's direct competitors. As a corollary, shame about those reports of the lens release button falling off. That would be really off-putting on a "pro" FF.

I've always liked the look of the big, round eyepiece on the FF Nikons. Just a nice aesthetic. The F6 looks awesome.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Coming back at how big such a camera is. I'm still aiming at a K-5 with inegrated grip as a new platform for that new camera 9with either Full Frame or APS-H sensor)

Compare camera dimensions side by side

Next to a D3s that is still a small camera. Look how tiny that Q is!


11-10-2011, 08:14 AM   #1097
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After spending some time looking at the site for a while comparing to d7000 and 60 d and 7 d, then looking at them versus the FF brethren there is no reason to believe that Pentax couldn't introduce a FF that is maybe in the size of a 7d or d 7000, since that difference is about what canikon have from apsc to FF as well. It's not k5 compact of course but compared to other FF cameras it's quite small, I can live with that I would think.
11-10-2011, 08:32 AM   #1098
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Next to the Canon 1dx even the d3 looks manageable

A k5 with integrated grip would probably be a little bigger than a 5d or d700 without the grip. Functionally with a fast 2.8 zoom of any length this would still be the best configuration. less so with the small primes though

I don't actually find my k7/grip unweildly but generally only use the grip with my 24-70 2.8. if I'm shooting primes i just take the body
Wow I didn't look at that 1Dx, but that is a monster

My idea of a intregraded grip attachted to a K-5 body to house everything and make a small an compact Full Frame (or APS-H) camera is brilliant looking at that big monster!

Dimensions w x d h in mm:
1Dx: 163,6 x 158 x 82,7
K-1: 131 x 145 x 73
If it was a solid block that 1Dx is 50 % larger. Carry that around for the whole day. It is even much larger (10 %) then 1D Mark IV where all sportsphotographers where asking for something smaller and less heavy for the past years.
11-10-2011, 08:44 AM   #1099
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
My idea of a intregraded grip attachted to a K-5 body to house everything and make a small an compact Full Frame (or APS-H) camera is brilliant looking at that big monster!
Meh. I don't like your idea of an integrated grip. I think just a slightly larger-than-K-5 (I don't mind the size of my K10d) body would suffice for a Pentax FF. If you want a grip, use an external one.

I don't like a grip, in fact I really like that on my LX and ME Super, the lens is flush with the bottom of the camera (but I understand that this is impossible on a camera with PDAF).

11-10-2011, 09:58 AM   #1100
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Meh. I don't like your idea of an integrated grip. I think just a slightly larger-than-K-5 (I don't mind the size of my K10d) body would suffice for a Pentax FF. If you want a grip, use an external one.
To be honest, a Canon 5D Mark II is 20 % larger then K20D, so my guess is that there won't fit a fully futured Full Frame camera in a K20D body (including SR).
11-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #1101
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest, a Canon 5D Mark II is 20 % larger then K20D, so my guess is that there won't fit a fully futured Full Frame camera in a K20D body (including SR).
It is not just the sensor size, but the mirror, prism and VF. I am definitely willing to trade some size for a top quality VF. Look at the Sony A900.
11-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #1102
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest, a Canon 5D Mark II is 20 % larger then K20D, so my guess is that there won't fit a fully futured Full Frame camera in a K20D body (including SR).
I would like to not to have SR produced by pentax.
Because their QR sucks and they still didn't resolve the issue with shutter caused blur (mine have one, I know other people).
This would help to produce quite compact body.
Although I would prefer the mirrorless FF with short flange distance with adaptor that supports full automatic mode for K-lenses.
11-10-2011, 10:09 AM   #1103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
It is not just the sensor size, but the mirror, prism and VF. I am definitely willing to trade some size for a top quality VF. Look at the Sony A900.
That is even bigger then 5D, so trying to get that into a K20D sized body as suggested is an illusion I think.

A big chunky VF would be nice. 100% and a 1.0x magnification.

11-10-2011, 10:47 AM   #1104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
I would like to not to have SR produced by pentax.
Because their QR sucks and they still didn't resolve the issue with shutter caused blur (mine have one, I know other people).
Uhh, Mmh ? You know how to use it, don't you?
11-10-2011, 11:07 AM   #1105
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Uhh, Mmh ? You know how to use it, don't you?
If he is referring to the k7 there is more prominent shutter induced blur in the 60-125 second than on say the K20 (though it still exists there)that is an acknowledged issue. Falks very detailed tests which were submitted to pentax . It has nothing to do with SR though according to these tests so maybe emacs is just blaming it on SR

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/108199-lumolabs-shutte...-7-camera.html
11-10-2011, 11:14 AM   #1106
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If he is referring to the k7 there is more prominent shutter induced blur in the 60-125 second than on say the K20 (though it still exists there)that is an acknowledged issue. Falks very detailed tests which were submitted to pentax . It has nothing to do with SR though according to these tests so maybe emacs is just blaming it on SR
Yes, but mine manages to cause blur even at 1/320. The blur disappears once the SR is turned off.
11-10-2011, 11:15 AM   #1107
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest, a Canon 5D Mark II is 20 % larger then K20D, so my guess is that there won't fit a fully futured Full Frame camera in a K20D body (including SR).
Well, canon also makes an aps-c camera the size of the 5d... I don't think the size of their camera proves much. The Sony a900 is just marginally larger and has SR and a better VF - if Pentax can make something like that with a more modern sensor, it would be fine with me.
11-10-2011, 11:38 AM   #1108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Yes, but mine manages to cause blur even at 1/320. The blur disappears once the SR is turned off.
Yours must be an exception then because i read Falk's test and it was pretty exhaustive and involved multiple bodies. he did mention any blur at that level. SR blur is an issue if you are shooting too fast though (as in not giving it time to lock it's function) there are things OS is better at and things SR is better at.

to quote from the post i linked to which summarises the findings (from 4 bodies and 8 lenses and 1 K20 as a conrtol)

QuoteQuote:
The mechanical focal plane shutter indirectly can increase the blur in an image. The exact amount of additional blur depends on the direction in the image. It is zero at a vertical contrast edge (aka yaw blur, blur due to yaw movement). And it is up to 11 Ám (on average) at a horizontal contrast edge (aka nick blur, blur due to nick movement).

The exact amount of average blur is shown in the opening figure of this article. It has its maximum for shutter speeds of about 1/100s to 1/80s. It is less than 5 Ám for 1/25s and slower. Or 1/250s and faster.

Note that any single image can be affected more or less. Add or subtract +/-50% to get an idea of variation from image to image.

Note that one pixel is 5 Ám large and the blur effect is only visible if all other sources of blur are very well under control (sharpening, defocus, shake, subject blur, lens abberation, noise etc.). Normally, these other sources mask the effect. Nevertheless, if you want tack sharp images then you need to understand the shutter blur effect.
The effect for the Pentax K-7 is larger than for the Pentax K20D. About 2 - 3x larger.
Mirror slap or shake reduction have no negative or positive impact on the effect. Shake reduction works as advertized but cannot counteract the perturbation from the focal plane shutter as it is too fast really. Mirror slap is very well dampened in the K-7 camera and has no negative impact on image resolution except on a weak tripod.

There is a delay of about 10 ms between end of mirror slap and begin of shutter operation which suffices to keep the mirror slap perturbation out of the image.
The blur effect is an indirect one:

First, the moving masses of the shutter (curtain etc.) make the body move (with surprising speed and acceleration of its stiff body!).

Second, the body movements cause a classical blur effect lasting as long as the shutter works. The K-7 shutter is faster and stronger than that of the K20D probably increasing the effect by some 60% or so.

Third, the body accelerations cause additional vibrations in the imaging sensor which last a bit longer than the first shutter curtain operates and which magnify the effect by another 60% or so.

Preventing the first from happening (which requires a heavy and sturdy tripod) will kill the effect. There is no "loose" magnetically held imaging sensor and no negative direct impact from shutter curtain or mirror slap causing air flow in the mirror box or whatever.
In practice, you'll only see any effect with wide angle lenses.

At about 1/100s you would normally have blur due to free-hand shake (we can ignore the case of a tripod as only weak tripods would cause any trouble with the shutter). At 50 mm and longer, the shutter blur will be masked and at 30 mm it will have comparable magnitude. It is at 10-20 mm that the effect will be noticeable most.

In these cases, we highly recommend to shoot at 1/25s (or slower) and to enable shake reduction as it is highly efficient at such exposure speeds. The images will be sharper than at 1/100s!
Early efficiency tests of the K-7 shake reduction suggested that it may be ineffective at fast shutter speeds as required for long focal lengths. This was a preliminary conclusion we proved to be wrong.

The Pentax shake reduction is effective even at 1/500s! It just cannot prevent the shutter blur at about 1/100s. We may soon publish an update to our SR guide reflecting this.

Please, read the blog and the White paper before discussing this. Thank You.
11-10-2011, 12:05 PM   #1109
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Yours must be an exception then because i read Falk's test and it was pretty exhaustive and involved multiple bodies. he did mention any blur at that level. SR blur is an issue if you are shooting too fast though (as in not giving it time to lock it's function) there are things OS is better at and things SR is better at.

to quote from the post i linked to which summarises the findings (from 4 bodies and 8 lenses and 1 K20 as a conrtol)
OMG
It shouldn't be exactly the same bug. But, the fact an image is essentially blurred if SR is ON shows it's the SR issue. And I'm not the only one who have troubles with it. I know at least three other people who have buggy SR too.
11-10-2011, 12:27 PM   #1110
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Nice site for measuring camera sizes.

Wha! The Nex 7 is only 2cm smaller then the K5. Just as wide, only 2cm shorter.

So much for extra mobility. Bye bye...
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