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11-17-2011, 10:14 AM   #1276
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I just got D700. I don't think many people here have looked at Nikon's lens selection.....and the price of the FX lenses. The 24-70mm is $1900, the 14-24mm is $2000 and the 70-200mm is another $2000. Sure you can buy a Sigma, but Nikon isn't making any money off that. So that's $6,000 just for three zooms and $2500 for the body (I got mine cheaper but that's the going rate now). Pentax doesn't even have these lenses for FF. To make any in roads into the professional market these lenses are mandatory + a F1.4 85mm and an F2.0 135mm (Nikon's are $1000 and $1300 respectively). I just don't see how they do this in the next couple of years but maybe they can.

You also need a really good 35mm. Nikon's is $1300. It really defeats the purpose to buy a $2500+ camera body and only put a $100-$300 lenses on it.
I think many here have looked at Nikon's lens selections and prices. Nikon is the company closest to Pentax in terms of design philosophy. Both are engineering companies with optical backgrounds.

You are absolutely correct about the lens development/price barrier. Throw in Pentax's antiquated flash system and Pentax is 3 years in lens development behind an FF sensor system.

And you've only quoted the f/2.8 pro lenses. A prosumer grade, travel-friendly, lighter f/3.5-4.0 lens array is also usually required.

Price is by far the biggest barrier to FF, both sensor/body costs as well as lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Ricoh needs folks to buy the big ticket lenses - but they aren't required for the shooter to take advantage of FF.
Well...logically you have to close the circle. Ricoh will never develop FF if they are not assured of new lens sales generating enough ROI. Therefore, if consumers want FF, they are economically required to forego cheap lens solutions.

11-17-2011, 10:53 AM   #1277
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
many here have looked at Nikon's lens selections and prices
yeah FA35f2.0 - 440, 35mm f2 D AF 255.... no comments!
11-17-2011, 10:58 AM   #1278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Ron, I'm afraid an APS-C entry level, an APS-C advanced (K-5 level), an APS-H and a FF would be too much. Adding video/no video options or high resolution/high speed would only decrease the units sold (per model), thus increasing the R&D and production costs.
IMHO Pentax shouldn't even try to go for the machine-gun sports pro market; they would fail. A D800 (?) level FF would be more than enough.
Well there will be only APS-H or Full Frame for now. Adding a next level could only be done when marketshare is bigger. I think that in time there will only be Canon/Nikon/Pentax in dslr and in that market Pentax should get a 15 % cut.

Having two different sensors in one body (well only sensor offcourse, but two to choose from) should raise the number of cameras to be sold to make the project more profatable. Aiming at different usergroups with two different sensor should reach different usergroups and thus sell more camera's.

Not aming at pro-sportsmarket, since that needs a different approach, but bringing a camera where you can make descent sportsimages with, makes this camera appealing to more people then you think. With 8 fps it's the fastest Pentaxcamera and still keeping the amount of data to process within limits to take care of with a single (and fast) PRIME III processor.

So one camera body, futuring two different sensors (options) should aim at all those different photographers. Wheater that is a sportsphotographer (not the kind you will find on olympics or World Cup Soccer), a wedding photographer, your macroguy, landscaper, commercialphotographer, studioworker.
11-17-2011, 11:24 AM   #1279
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Clavius: What's wrong with Live View, SR and the video? And what makes you think the IQ will be increased without those? ...
Read my post more carefully...

IQ is higher on CCD then on CMOS. It's a fact of life.

The rest of my post is just personal taste:

I never use liveview, can't really see what's going on on such a low resolution and tiny screen. I do lots of macro with a external screen. When I'm mobile, I use the viewfinder. When doing macro it's on a tripod in a studio, immobilized, so just as well hook up a external screen. The liveview is redundant. I wouldn't know when to use it, even if I wanted it. Others may find it wonderful. Again, it's my personal taste that I was illustrating in contrast to yours.

I never missed the video on my K20D. And I've used it on my K5 maybe twice. But my K5 has over 100.000 clicks now! (Lots and lots of macro fotostacking.) ((Machine still performs flawlessly though!))

My SR is off most of the time. Mostly because I forget to turn it back on again. I have the honest impression that turning it off when mobile actually improves IQ. Maybe I've got supersteady hands? That's OK, means I should drink more!

11-17-2011, 12:56 PM   #1280
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
But my K5 has over 100.000 clicks now!
I'm on 100.000 also, but used 4 different K-5 body's for that number this past 12 months.
11-17-2011, 01:01 PM   #1281
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I'm on 100.000 also, but used 4 different K-5 body's for that number this past 12 months.
I know.... I shouldn't be abusing a wonderful machine like the K5 like that. With the deepest focus stacks I used 200 images to get one single photo.

...But the conclusion is that it can handle the abuse!
11-17-2011, 01:14 PM   #1282
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How do you define a higher IQ? Some people are OK with only "very good" low and mid-ISO image quality but want "good" high ISO and even "acceptable" insanely high ISO.
No video doesn't mean lower production costs (and thus, a lower price for the final product). If you hope for a significantly cheaper camera with a much better image quality (as defined by your personal preferences) - I'm afraid it can't be done.
"Killing" SR because you have very steady hands - that's another method to limit the number of customers and drive the price up.
By the way, are we sure the KAI-16050 doesn't support live view or even video? (e.g. 720p, with 4x4 binning - it should be able to reach 30fps) I'm starting to like the idea of a high-ish end CCD APS-H camera. Not sure it would sell, though.
11-17-2011, 01:35 PM   #1283
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Well having improvement of one stop would be great. So for K-5 iso 6400 wich I considder acceptable, but also stopping there to get great images, having that quality at iso 12.800. Not for using that iso 12.800 but for having the better IQ at iso 6400 (at the level of K-5's iso 3200). That step needs to be done. I'm sure that at base iso it will perform also great. Hoping even for iso 64 as a starter.

Why? To improve image quality of pictures I take:


K-5 with DA*300mm set at 300mm, f4, 1/400th and iso 6400

11-17-2011, 02:37 PM   #1284
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I would rather have squeaky clean images up to 1600 and "acceptable" performance at 3200 and forget the rest, so a CCD is my ideal sensor. I should clarify though, my definition of acceptable is most people's idea of squeaky clean. Think K5 @ 800, that's my idea of squeaky, and acceptable is the K5 @ 1600, so basically a one stop improvement in mid ISO noise. I think there's far too much hype about ISO 12800 that obfuscates mediocre mid ISO performance. But I'll admit it, I'm a pixel peeper, and I don't shoot much fast action. The 645D suits my style of photography best out of any camera, just not my budget.

Oh, and Amen to lower ISOs too. ISO 20 would be fantastic, even if it's not native. Sometimes you just want to kill the light without going to f/22 or 1/8000th.

Last edited by maxfield_photo; 11-17-2011 at 02:49 PM.
11-17-2011, 02:46 PM   #1285
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
I would rather have squeaky clean images up to 1600 and "acceptable" performance at 3200 and forget the rest, so a CCD is my ideal sensor. I should clarify though, my definition of acceptable is most people's idea of squeaky clean. Think K5 @ 800, that's my idea of squeaky, and acceptable is the K5 @ 1600, so basically a one stop improvement in mid ISO noise. I think there's far too much hype about ISO 12800 that obfuscates mediocre mid ISO performance. But I'll admit it, I'm a pixel peeper, and I don't shoot much fast action. The 645D suits my style of photography best out of any camera, just not my budget.
Well I do love the image quality of K-5 at iso 80 (or iso160 with dynamic range expension) since it is exceptional. But I sometimes just need the high iso-settings or have to stop taking pictures. I would love that Pentax grows with me

If the iso-range of that new sensor (CCD would be okay for me) is from iso 64 - 6400 that would be fine for me. I'm not looking for the extra's (even when I used iso 12.800 for familypictures in an amusementpark for the indoor rides and they are just amazing for family album), as long as it takes a jump in IQ starting from K-5 going up.

I called it Orbs (but they'r not)

In a waterride indoor amuzementpark: K-5 with DA40mm settings: iso 10.000 and 1/20th and f5.6

So much fun to make a picture like this.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 11-17-2011 at 03:38 PM.
11-17-2011, 02:58 PM   #1286
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
My SR is off most of the time. Mostly because I forget to turn it back on again. I have the honest impression that turning it off when mobile actually improves IQ. Maybe I've got supersteady hands? That's OK, means I should drink more!
My case. I told about blurry images at 1/320 and SR on. I got one when I tried to shoot at escalator.
11-17-2011, 02:59 PM   #1287
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well having improvement of one stop would be great. So for K-5 iso 6400 wich I considder acceptable, but also stopping there to get great images, having that quality at iso 12.800. Not for using that iso 12.800 but for having the better IQ at iso 6400 (at the level of K-5's iso 3200). That step needs to be done. I'm sure that at base iso it will perform also great. Hoping even for iso 64 as a starter.

Why? To improve image quality of pictures I take:


K-5 with DA*300mm set at 300mm, f4, 1/400th and iso 6400
Nice picture. However, I find it interesting from a film perspective - at that ISO, I'm wanting to see golf ball sized grain, since to me that's what I expect from high ISO: the "look" of film (though color grain @ ISO 3200 doesn't appeal to me as much for a sports photo, black and white would be better).

Such a concept....."clean" shots at ISO 6400.....

Now I want to go buy a roll of TMZ......quick before Kodak goes bankrupt.....
11-17-2011, 03:00 PM   #1288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Well...logically you have to close the circle. Ricoh will never develop FF if they are not assured of new lens sales generating enough ROI. Therefore, if consumers want FF, they are economically required to forego cheap lens solutions.

If entry into the format is stalled by someone's false impression that they have to buy the big f/2.8 zooms or $2000 primes, that keeps them out of the format completely in many cases.

Ricoh/Pentax would never want that. Instead, if it gets folks to buy into the format, they would be fine with the initial purchase being the body only, knowing that the likelihood of more lens sales from that person in the years to come has gone up.

It's always in Ricoh's best interest for someone to click 'order' on a higher-margin body + two f/2,8 zooms right off the bat, but they would very much welcome the second best thing - body only now, a f/2.8 zoom at the next birthday, another mid-priced new prime the following Christmas, etc, etc.

The latter is by far the most prevalent purchase pattern I see in the Nikon forums.

And even if they never buy another lens again, putting them in a small minority - net gain for Pentax, as the body (even a mid-to-low-tier one) is higher-margin than a K-5, for example. And it keeps that person from buying a D700 + AIS lenses


.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 11-17-2011 at 06:01 PM.
11-17-2011, 03:33 PM   #1289
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oog Quote
Hey....you talkin' bout me?
And me, in part
11-17-2011, 03:41 PM   #1290
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
And me, in part
Cool
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