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11-17-2011, 04:09 PM   #1291
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QuoteOriginally posted by Oog Quote
Nice picture. However, I find it interesting from a film perspective - at that ISO, I'm wanting to see golf ball sized grain, since to me that's what I expect from high ISO: the "look" of film (though color grain @ ISO 3200 doesn't appeal to me as much for a sports photo, black and white would be better).

Such a concept....."clean" shots at ISO 6400.....
Well there is nothing wrong with some grain. For a newspaper it isn't even a problem and they also like black and white. For printing in a magazine, that is totaly different. They aren't looking for artistic grain with a touch of history and 10 year old pictures. You either can bring the desired image quality, or someone else will sell a picture instead of you.

That is also important to Pentax I think. Bringing a camera to the market that is up for the challenge of delivering pictures that meet future market Image Quality demands. It's not only for hobby and family pictures in future.

11-17-2011, 11:15 PM   #1292
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I think the picture quality is already there - I had some photos I took with my K-r printed on an HP digital press at 8 x 12, CMYK color process and I was very amazed at the quality at that print size. Looks like any photo in magazine or textbook. I think what will sell your picture over someone else is the content (and you take very good sports photos!).

Now as for FF.....I still want that quality too....and to have my 28mm look like a 28 mm!!!!!
11-18-2011, 01:57 AM   #1293
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There is the rumor that there will be a new MILC in spring " to which K lenses can be mounted without adapter".
Perhaps this is FF?
Well, I have my doubts, but it would be nice.
11-18-2011, 03:14 AM   #1294
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The list of FF isn't so long:



More to read: Visualize this: the fifteen 35mm full frame digital cameras since 2002 - 1001 Noisy Cameras

Does anyone think that all these 15 camera's together come even close to the salesnumbers on Nikon's D40?

11-18-2011, 06:56 AM   #1295
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
When doing macro it's on a tripod in a studio, immobilized, so just as well hook up a external screen. The liveview is redundant. I wouldn't know when to use it, even if I wanted it.
I'm confused. You hook up an external screen, but you don't want to use it to see what you're doing, just the finished pictures? I'm pretty sure most people would find it useful to have live view in this situation.
11-18-2011, 07:01 AM - 1 Like   #1296
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1,276 days since I bought my first full frame 5D

3&1/2 years have passed since I bought my first 5D full frame.

By Christmas this year I'll buy 5D Mark II, my forth full frame dslr, all bought new.

Pentax sent me away to shop elsewhere. As my eyes age threre's no way I'll ever buy another aps-c camera from anyone. Big full frame pentaprism viewfinder is a must for me.

I bought my first two 5D back in March 2008 for $1,750 each. Thats right, at the very same point in time Pentax K20D sat at $1,299, thus full frame cost me $450 more a piece versus Pentax K20D. Then Nikon lured me to the DarkSide so I bought a D700 almost 1,000 days ago. Great camera also, hands down Best Camera I own. I've had no problems with anything I bought from Canikon.

I'm prepared to pay $1850-$1950 for brand new 5D Mark II next week, during Black Friday.
5D Mark II will cost me $650-$750 more than Pentax K-5 and just $8,100 less than one 645D and $850 less than unavailable Nikon D700.

At the local camera club, where I am only person who owns any Pentax Dslr, there are around 60 people with either a 5D, 5D Mark II, D700.

Oh, its been some 3,300 days since I bought my first brand new Pentax film camera and I am still foolishly waiting to buy a 24x36 format dslr from Pentax, but I'm not missing any images cause I've gone elsewhere to meet my needs.



QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The list of FF isn't so long:



More to read: Visualize this: the fifteen 35mm full frame digital cameras since 2002 - 1001 Noisy Cameras

Does anyone think that all these 15 camera's together come even close to the salesnumbers on Nikon's D40?

Last edited by Samsungian; 11-18-2011 at 07:14 AM.
11-18-2011, 07:08 AM   #1297
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote

Does anyone think that all these 15 camera's together come even close to the salesnumbers on Nikon's D40?


One owner of two D3s, Fotogrāfs Andrejs Zavadskis with huge friends list on facebook (thousands), with popular wedding blogs and so on, writing all the time about his Nikon... How do you think, how many these D40 he unintentionally sells? ;-)

And I know similar ex-pentaxist of Canon fellas, who shots canon fulframe and lot of people are influenced by his suggestions. They have forgotten about Pentax, as a result, newcomer even Don`t know that Pentax exist. So, they buy Canikons.

11-18-2011, 07:12 AM   #1298
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
There is the rumor that there will be a new MILC in spring " to which K lenses can be mounted without adapter".
Perhaps this is FF?
Well, I have my doubts, but it would be nice.
I hope this isn't true. I want high performance compact wide angle lenses. This ins't possible with long flange distance of DSLR cameras. So I believe they will utilize their advantage and will respect old customers with fully automatic adaptor, not the reusing the old mount.

11-18-2011, 07:27 AM   #1299
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.

Taken couple days ago with a $2000 35mm f/1.2 wide-open on aps-c:
(Or maybe it was a $110 50 1.8 on FF )
.
These are some really spectacular shots. The DOF on the 2 canon shots is awesome. Love the processing.

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.
(Here's f/8)
(A long, rambling thread needs images for flavor.)
.
Yes it does!
11-18-2011, 08:04 AM   #1300
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vaards Quote


One owner of two D3s, Fotogrāfs Andrejs Zavadskis with huge friends list on facebook (thousands), with popular wedding blogs and so on, writing all the time about his Nikon... How do you think, how many these D40 he unintentionally sells? ;-)

And I know similar ex-pentaxist of Canon fellas, who shots canon fulframe and lot of people are influenced by his suggestions. They have forgotten about Pentax, as a result, newcomer even Don`t know that Pentax exist. So, they buy Canikons.

The argument here is that full-frame is important for marketing. I think the anecdotes you give are accurate, but there may also be other, more cost-effective ways for Pentax to market itself. Just because one approach works for other brands doesn't mean that it's the best for Pentax.

I recognize that this is a legitimate business argument for offering full-frame. But I don't think it's a very strong argument on its own.

For example, the same effect works in the other direction. Canon makes some of the most popular point & shoot cameras, and, when people look for a more advanced camera, they're likely to look at Canon for that reason. Pentax has always struggled with their P&S cameras. Maybe the Ricoh acquisition will help there, although certainly there is no current large Ricoh P&S market in the US. I'm not saying this approach is better, but it might be.

Or, Pentax could push the 645D as the market flagship/showpiece — which they don't really seem to do. (See the comments in http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/16/pentax645Dsamples, where the Digital Photography Review people explain that they asked for a review copy and Pentax said no.)

Alternately, there are plenty of marketing ideas that don't revolve around other market segments. In fact, it's arguable that one could make a good marketing campaign from "The big companies just want to try and upsell you to full frame, which makes more profit for them — Pentax is focusing on your needs as a serious, skilled enthusiast with a real world budget." (Which is, in fact, what Pentax seems to have largely done, which is why I am a happy Pentax user.)
11-18-2011, 08:06 AM   #1301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
I hope this isn't true. I want high performance compact wide angle lenses. This ins't possible with long flange distance of DSLR cameras. So I believe they will utilize their advantage and will respect old customers with fully automatic adaptor, not the reusing the old mount.
I agree with you that K-mount mirrorless sounds like a very bad idea... but what you say isn't necessarily true: One could envision new K-mount lenses that only work in mirrorless cameras and that protrude from the back of the lens into the "non-mirror box". For instance, the CZ 24mm for Sony NEX is 66.5 mm long, and the K-mount registration distance is (46.5 - 18) mm longer than the NEX distance, so building a similar lens to the CZ 24mm would still leave you 38 mm outside the K-mount - that's quite a bit more than the depth of the DA21! (25mm).

Now suppose you want to make a similar lens to the Olympus 12mm for "mirrorless K-mount". That lens is 56 mm long, so if you made a similar lens it would leave 56 - (46.5 - 20) outside the K-mount, i.e. 29.5 - still more than the DA21!

But really, to get started they only need to make a collapsible highly compact kit lens that makes the K-mount mirrorless kit look just as small as (or maybe smaller than!) a NEX kit.
11-18-2011, 08:09 AM   #1302
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This is a great post. If folks need or want a FF as expressed so passionately on this thread then they should just purchase one of the excellent FF cameras currently available. I plan to pick up a 5DM2 on Black Friday, too.

For some, I think there is a lot of frustration that a substantial investment has been sunk into Pentax glass when they really want a body that exists on another platform. Some can afford to maintain 2 systems and simply buy what they want. Some have tallied the current market value of their Pentax outfit against the Nikon and/or Canon material in their B&H shopping cart and sadly acknowledge either an unacceptable loss or inability to afford replacement glass. Then it's off to the forum to endlessly demand that Pentax make a FF camera in order to protect their investment. I remember when I first joined this forum there was someone called 36X24NOW or something and these same wants and desires were harped on ad infinitum.


QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
3&1/2 years have passed since I bought my first 5D full frame.

By Christmas this year I'll buy 5D Mark II, my forth full frame dslr, all bought new.

Pentax sent me away to shop elsewhere. As my eyes age threre's no way I'll ever buy another aps-c camera from anyone. Big full frame pentaprism viewfinder is a must for me.

I bought my first two 5D back in March 2008 for $1,750 each. Thats right, at the very same point in time Pentax K20D sat at $1,299, thus full frame cost me $450 more a piece versus Pentax K20D. Then Nikon lured me to the DarkSide so I bought a D700 almost 1,000 days ago. Great camera also, hands down Best Camera I own. I've had no problems with anything I bought from Canikon.

I'm prepared to pay $1850-$1950 for brand new 5D Mark II next week, during Black Friday.
5D Mark II will cost me $650-$750 more than Pentax K-5 and just $8,100 less than one 645D and $850 less than unavailable Nikon D700.

At the local camera club, where I am only person who owns any Pentax Dslr, there are around 60 people with either a 5D, 5D Mark II, D700.

Oh, its been some 3,300 days since I bought my first brand new Pentax film camera and I am still foolishly waiting to buy a 24x36 format dslr from Pentax, but I'm not missing any images cause I've gone elsewhere to meet my needs.
11-18-2011, 08:19 AM   #1303
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OMG, if they release another mirrorless system, nobody will ever take Pentax seriously again. Including me. Four mounts for such a small brand! K, Q, 645 and yet another one. That's suicide.
11-18-2011, 08:24 AM   #1304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
3&1/2 years have passed since I bought my first 5D full frame.

By Christmas this year I'll buy 5D Mark II, my forth full frame dslr, all bought new.

Pentax sent me away to shop elsewhere. As my eyes age threre's no way I'll ever buy another aps-c camera from anyone. Big full frame pentaprism viewfinder is a must for me.

I bought my first two 5D back in March 2008 for $1,750 each. Thats right, at the very same point in time Pentax K20D sat at $1,299, thus full frame cost me $450 more a piece versus Pentax K20D. Then Nikon lured me to the DarkSide so I bought a D700 almost 1,000 days ago. Great camera also, hands down Best Camera I own. I've had no problems with anything I bought from Canikon.

I'm prepared to pay $1850-$1950 for brand new 5D Mark II next week, during Black Friday.
5D Mark II will cost me $650-$750 more than Pentax K-5 and just $8,100 less than one 645D and $850 less than unavailable Nikon D700.

At the local camera club, where I am only person who owns any Pentax Dslr, there are around 60 people with either a 5D, 5D Mark II, D700.

Oh, its been some 3,300 days since I bought my first brand new Pentax film camera and I am still foolishly waiting to buy a 24x36 format dslr from Pentax, but I'm not missing any images cause I've gone elsewhere to meet my needs.
Sorry, but anyone who flip-flops this much is not really a Pentax person.
11-18-2011, 08:27 AM - 1 Like   #1305
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I don't know how many people here read Kirk Tuck's Visual Science Lab blog. For me, it's one of my every-day photography must-reads, along with The Online Photographer. Both blogs cover gear, but are largely about photography.

Recently, Kirk — who is an old-school long-time high-end pro photographer — has been playing with the Nikon V1, and has a series of musings on that which are relevant to that thread. For example: The Visual Science Lab / Kirk Tuck: I'm always amazed at how entrenched people can get in a position without even a thimble of experience..., which says in part:

QuoteQuote:

A camera, or a camera system, is only a method to communicate with. In most instances the message is much more important than the delivery system. Especially when we remember who our target markets are. Most people are not "old school" photographers or photography buffs and they haven't developed a taste for many of the techniques that old fart holdovers seem to think crucial. For example, a beautiful expression trumps massive resolution. The right moment trumps high color accuracy. The right angle "bitch slaps" bit depth. And more and more the camera that provides the user with the most fluency and fluidity is the system that returns the best dividends. The fewer controls the faster the operation. The faster the operation the more opportunity.
One can make a very reasonable argument that even though full-frame has a wide number of technical benefits, it's just plain not the way of the future, and therefore that it wouldn't be wise for Pentax to a lot of money on developing and marketing such a system — not if they want to Be Interesting.
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