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11-18-2011, 08:35 AM - 1 Like   #1306
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Sorry, but anyone who flip-flops this much is not really a Pentax person.
So you're like a pure-bred Pentaxian - maintaining another system is akin to infidelity - cheating on your spouse?

Who would be more of a Pentax person - someone who has and enjoys Pentax but also has another system to fill gaps in the line-up <or> someone who will only ever buy Pentax yet complains on forums that Pentax is insufficient and not doing enough?

11-18-2011, 08:55 AM   #1307
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrPetkus Quote
So you're like a pure-bred Pentaxian - maintaining another system is akin to infidelity - cheating on your spouse?

Who would be more of a Pentax person - someone who has and enjoys Pentax but also has another system to fill gaps in the line-up <or> someone who will only ever buy Pentax yet complains on forums that Pentax is insufficient and not doing enough?
Anyone who buys 3 different systems since 2008 is neither a Pentax person, a Canon person, nor a Nikon person. Frankly, I don't think they know what they want.
11-18-2011, 09:07 AM   #1308
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I agree with you that K-mount mirrorless sounds like a very bad idea... but what you say isn't necessarily true: One could envision new K-mount lenses that only work in mirrorless cameras and that protrude from the back of the lens into the "non-mirror box". For instance, the CZ 24mm for Sony NEX is 66.5 mm long, and the K-mount registration distance is (46.5 - 18) mm longer than the NEX distance, so building a similar lens to the CZ 24mm would still leave you 38 mm outside the K-mount - that's quite a bit more than the depth of the DA21! (25mm).

Now suppose you want to make a similar lens to the Olympus 12mm for "mirrorless K-mount". That lens is 56 mm long, so if you made a similar lens it would leave 56 - (46.5 - 20) outside the K-mount, i.e. 29.5 - still more than the DA21!

But really, to get started they only need to make a collapsible highly compact kit lens that makes the K-mount mirrorless kit look just as small as (or maybe smaller than!) a NEX kit.
LOL
This sonnar blows the Limited away from the IQ POV. It's the 16mm pancake that must be compared to 21Ltd (it's faster. It's wider and it's sharper than limited used with nex-5n. And it's smaller). To reach the 21mm quality of biogons 21 (2.8 and 4.5) you need to be huge and heavy like distagon (but biogons are still slightly better).

Plus the K-mount body will be significantly larger and heavier.

But you didn't get the idea. It's much simplier to compute and produce wide angle lenses with lesser flange distance. So we'll have better (size, sharpness, speed, etc) lenses for the same price. Although, with such a tiny sensor we can't have good ones anyway.

Last edited by Emacs; 11-18-2011 at 09:21 AM.
11-18-2011, 09:18 AM   #1309
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Alternately, there are plenty of marketing ideas that don't revolve around other market segments. In fact, it's arguable that one could make a good marketing campaign from "The big companies just want to try and upsell you to full frame, which makes more profit for them — Pentax is focusing on your needs as a serious, skilled enthusiast with a real world budget." (Which is, in fact, what Pentax seems to have largely done, which is why I am a happy Pentax user.)
Fully agreed !! I've never really understood the "I need a full-frame upgrade path" mantra.

11-18-2011, 09:44 AM   #1310
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Fully agreed !! I've never really understood the "I need a full-frame upgrade path" mantra.
Well even if it was an APS-H upgrade path.. it would be something.. For resolution and better IQ it's just hard to get around using a bigger sensor size. As well as using the lenses without cropping the image coming through them.
11-18-2011, 09:53 AM - 1 Like   #1311
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Fully agreed !! I've never really understood the "I need a full-frame upgrade path" mantra.
It's tradition

I came to Pentax with my Mz-5n and at a time, when they struggled to keep their costumers who compared the z1-p to the equivalent Nikon F5 and Canon EOS flagships. The Z1-p was not a bad camera at all, but it did not have the slightest chance in the market. Pentax took a turn and showed cojones in trying a different approach, which was best complimented by the release of the Mz-3 and the FA-limited lenses, and that was what made me look a second time and brought them a costumer.

And since the early time of internet when discussion groups as the PDML where active one thing is a standard in Pentax world: when will the real flagship come
The long awaited and desiderated Mz-1 was always just a second away and would bring Pentax all the glory they would have deserved - but it never showed up

Instead they produced the Mz-s, in my eyes a fine camera, bringing some nice innovative and very professional things, like the illumination of "EXIF"-data between the frames on the film! A dream for everybody, who was using this camera in research, science, or generally everybody interested in serious archiving. This was the heritage of the LX, a robust, versatile, long lasting camera for outdoors, made by photographers for photographers, that was the message (the LX was the main system used f.e. by archaeologists worldwide, for aerial reconnaisance, in the desert, the jungle).

I see history repeating. Maybe a FF-flagship will appear on the horizon, maybe not. I don't care, as long as they keep their good tradition of bringing the best COMBINATION and are not trying to play the numbers game, be it mm, MP or fps... K-5D and 645D seem to be proof that at the moment they do.

Just my 2c.
11-18-2011, 10:10 AM   #1312
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Fully agreed !! I've never really understood the "I need a full-frame upgrade path" mantra.
Hmmm, how bout "Gimme back my full frame, ya bastards!"?

Last edited by maxfield_photo; 11-18-2011 at 10:25 AM.
11-18-2011, 10:15 AM   #1313
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Fully agreed !! I've never really understood the "I need a full-frame upgrade path" mantra.
Well I would like a camera that gives more options then currently offering by Pentax. The size of the sensor is only a part of it. Making it FF is not a goal to me, but maybe that could be the answer to some of the questions.

11-18-2011, 10:24 AM   #1314
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrPetkus Quote
For some, I think there is a lot of frustration that a substantial investment has been sunk into Pentax glass when they really want a body that exists on another platform. Some can afford to maintain 2 systems and simply buy what they want. Some have tallied the current market value of their Pentax outfit against the Nikon and/or Canon material in their B&H shopping cart and sadly acknowledge either an unacceptable loss or inability to afford replacement glass. Then it's off to the forum to endlessly demand that Pentax make a FF camera in order to protect their investment. I remember when I first joined this forum there was someone called 36X24NOW or something and these same wants and desires were harped on ad infinitum.
Well the money to spend on photograpic equipement is certainly one part of making descisions. That is for me the same as for a lot of people.


Pentax K-5 with DA*60-250mm/f4
Canon 5Dii 100-400mm/f4.5-5.6L can do the same at the lost of some light, but delevering to some degree the same image and DOF.

In terms of light and FOV:
APS-c with 250mm/f4 = APS-H with 300mm/f4 = Full Frame with 400mm/f4
The costs of these jumps in format are enormous and there is a strong reason why to stop at APS-H for a while as the next Pentax pro-level in K-mount.
11-18-2011, 11:21 AM   #1315
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Cannon or Canon?

QuoteOriginally posted by patrickrea Quote
These are some really spectacular shots. The DOF on the 2 canon shots is awesome. Love the processing.
Ahem. Nikon.



.
11-18-2011, 12:12 PM   #1316
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well the money to spend on photograpic equipement is certainly one part of making descisions. That is for me the same as for a lot of people.


Pentax K-5 with DA*60-250mm/f4
Canon 5Dii 100-400mm/f4.5-5.6L can do the same at the lost of some light, but delevering to some degree the same image and DOF.

In terms of light and FOV:
APS-c with 250mm/f4 = APS-H with 300mm/f4 = Full Frame with 400mm/f4
The costs of these jumps in format are enormous and there is a strong reason why to stop at APS-H for a while as the next Pentax pro-level in K-mount.
APS-H is slowly starting to make more sense to me.
11-18-2011, 12:23 PM   #1317
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Alas, marketing drives (kills) engineering.....Enthusiast photographer to marketers seems to mean "APS-C" whereas professional means "FF".

Guess we still have to wait for what Ricoh/Pentax has up their sleeves (if anything - oh wait, Ricoh just released another compact camera....oooooohhhhh, aaaahhhhhhh).

And I'm retro-upgrading to film - wait, I'm already there....
11-18-2011, 12:38 PM - 1 Like   #1318
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote

Alternately, there are plenty of marketing ideas that don't revolve around other market segments. In fact, it's arguable that one could make a good marketing campaign from "The big companies just want to try and upsell you to full frame, which makes more profit for them — Pentax is focusing on your needs as a serious, skilled enthusiast with a real world budget." (Which is, in fact, what Pentax seems to have largely done, which is why I am a happy Pentax user.)
.

That's a good way to spin it in Pentax's favor.

If Pentax was really focusing on my needs, I wouldn't have felt the need to buy a D700. Forget about me - this applies to some degree to anyone who upgraded from Pentax to any FF camera in the past 5 years. Everyone looking for an upgrade has to just pop off the top, go elsewhere. "You simply shouldn't want anything more than aps-c" is not a good argument for a company to try to make. Nikon tried to make that argument as a CYA for a few years until they were able to bring the D3 series to market.

"real world budgets" are well satisfied by an aps-c offering, which Pentax would of course still provide even if they offered a FF body. "real world upgrade paths" are not satisfied by $1100 K-5 --> $10,000 645D when that upgrade doesn't even accept your K-mount lenses.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 11-18-2011 at 12:54 PM.
11-18-2011, 12:59 PM   #1319
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Real world budget is quite a blanket statement.. WHO's real world budget.. it more or less has to do with the purchasers needs than the budget! If a photographer is looking for a FF or to upgrade from APS-C to FF they sure as hell won't settle for a new APS-C no matter how good it is. By not offering a FF or at LEAST an APS-H size upgrade path they are doing themselves and us the consumer a disservice.
11-18-2011, 01:03 PM   #1320
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
Real world budget is quite a blanket statement.. WHO's real world budget...
Agreed.
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