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11-18-2011, 01:12 PM   #1321
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Clavius: What's wrong with Live View, SR and the video? And what makes you think the IQ will be increased without those? IMHO:
- LV can dramatically improve the IQ in some cases, by allowing critical focus (think of macro work with the camera on a tripod)
- SR can dramatically improve the IQ in some cases and it's the only stabilization method available from Pentax.
- video can decrease the cost per unit, because of a (much) higher sales volume
I've met a lot of pentaxians who only use liveview mode with their K-r. Ironically, most of them came from DSLR backgrounds (note not SLR). Liveview with contrast detect focus is how they use their K-r to get critically sharp pictures. The use of reflect mirrors and manual focusing by eye is going to be a lost art very soon, replaced by these on-screen focusing aids.

I don't think video is absolutely must-have feature, if it means to shave say $500 bucks off the shelf price to have models without video, I'd snap that up in a heartbeat.

11-18-2011, 01:20 PM   #1322
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
It's tradition

I came to Pentax with my Mz-5n and at a time, when they struggled to keep their costumers who compared the z1-p to the equivalent Nikon F5 and Canon EOS flagships. The Z1-p was not a bad camera at all, but it did not have the slightest chance in the market. Pentax took a turn and showed cojones in trying a different approach, which was best complimented by the release of the Mz-3 and the FA-limited lenses, and that was what made me look a second time and brought them a costumer.

And since the early time of internet when discussion groups as the PDML where active one thing is a standard in Pentax world: when will the real flagship come
The long awaited and desiderated Mz-1 was always just a second away and would bring Pentax all the glory they would have deserved - but it never showed up

Instead they produced the Mz-s, in my eyes a fine camera, bringing some nice innovative and very professional things, like the illumination of "EXIF"-data between the frames on the film! A dream for everybody, who was using this camera in research, science, or generally everybody interested in serious archiving. This was the heritage of the LX, a robust, versatile, long lasting camera for outdoors, made by photographers for photographers, that was the message (the LX was the main system used f.e. by archaeologists worldwide, for aerial reconnaisance, in the desert, the jungle).

I see history repeating. Maybe a FF-flagship will appear on the horizon, maybe not. I don't care, as long as they keep their good tradition of bringing the best COMBINATION and are not trying to play the numbers game, be it mm, MP or fps... K-5D and 645D seem to be proof that at the moment they do.
.
Unfortunately each and any of the "flagship" Pentaxes failed in the market. The PZ-1p was big, heavy and had a slow AF. The hand grip was big, bulky, expensive and empty - no battieries in there. The MZ-S was beautiful, but at 4 fps, slower than any pro-modell since the 1960s. At least during those AF film days, Pentax had a very decent lens line-up. Since the LX Pentax hadn't brought a single professional 35mm camera onto the market. Seriously I think, the K10 and K20 were much more pro, than any 35mm camera Pentax made since the LX and the K5 certainly points into the right direction.

All in all I find the APS-C camera concept quite convincing. The current Pentaxes are fantastic value and deliver very good image quality. Any camera fornat has its own merrits and shortcomings, whether it be LF, MF, 35mm, APS-C or smaller. I very much prefer Pentax to develop the current modells further and add more lenses, then investing heavily in a 35mm DSLR, which swallows up ressources and will not add to the company's bottom line.

Pentax has not been in the position of Canon and Nikon, who had been able to produce flagship modells for their own sake, without the need to produce real revenue. And I doubt, Ricoh will invest millions into full-frame cameras, that are hardly saleable, as they come with a price tag, which most amateurs are not prepared to pay. And to win over the pro market, Pentax needs a pro-system, not only a single pro-camera.

Ben
11-18-2011, 01:30 PM   #1323
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Anyone who buys 3 different systems since 2008 is neither a Pentax person, a Canon person, nor a Nikon person. Frankly, I don't think they know what they want.
Perhaps they want to have a fast long tele lens? Perhaps they want to have fast lenses generally? Perhaps they want to have a fully-fledged flash system? - I ould think, thos photogs know exactly what they want!

There are enough reasons to use different cameras for different purposes. I use Pentax APS-C, Mamiya MF, Cambo and Graflex LF, for instance. I have been using Pentax for the last thirty years, but there always were special applications, where other brands seemed preferable for certain occasions and tasks. I went for instance for Leica Rs, to make use of their rapid focus lenses (in pre-AF days) or the Leica M to use the wonderful set of fast lenses they offered (35/1.4, 50/1.0 and 75/1.4).

I could not care less about any notion me being not a Pentax person. And I guess anybody serious about photography will use his/her equipment to advantage, whatever brand sticks on the prism housing.

Ben
11-18-2011, 01:47 PM   #1324
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben_Edict Quote
Pentax has not been in the position of Canon and Nikon, who had been able to produce flagship modells for their own sake, without the need to produce real revenue. And I doubt, Ricoh will invest millions into full-frame cameras, that are hardly saleable, as they come with a price tag, which most amateurs are not prepared to pay. And to win over the pro market, Pentax needs a pro-system, not only a single pro-camera.

Ben
Pentax may not have a full blown pro-system, but any average high-end consumer who can afford a K-5 plus a DA* lens can afford a Pentax full frame. (and that's what I would buy)

Lens prices may not drop but electronics and integrated circuits only gets cheaper, the question remains how soon?

11-18-2011, 01:49 PM   #1325
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Anyone who buys 3 different systems since 2008 is neither a Pentax person, a Canon person, nor a Nikon person. Frankly, I don't think they know what they want.
I have a K5, a D700, an X100, GXR, and Sigma DP1/2. I a camera/photography person it's my hobby. I refuse to be hamstrung by blind obedience to a single brand. Each camera does something different. Seriously you make it sound like if someone uses a Nikon you can tell what kind of human being they are. Lately I haven't used the Pentax much but I still have an enormous amount of respect for the equipment. At this point I probably wouldn't invest in a Pentax Full Frame system because I now have the lenses I want with Nikon. However, I hope they make one because I like the brand and I think the more competition the different manufacturers have the better the products they make. I also think there are a lot of nice people on this forum who have seriously invested in Pentax and it would be difficult for them to just chuck it all and by a Nikon or Canon or Sony. However, I have never quite understood some of the patently silly antipathy directed at users of Canon or Nikon I've seen on this forum. Who cares what kind of camera you use but yourself.
11-18-2011, 02:19 PM   #1326
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
I have a K5, a D700, an X100, GXR, and Sigma DP1/2.... Each camera does something different.
But do you go on the Fuji board (for example) and talk about how much you love your X100, but complain because they don't make a DSLR system of your satisfaction? Or do you just appreciate your X100 for what it is? I, too, have an assortment of cameras...Pentax, Sony, Olympus, Nikon...all for different purposes. However, if a brand doesn't have what I want....I dont' buy it! All I'm saying is that if a person is looking for a FF DSLR...or fast, long telephotos...or the most up-to-date flash system...Pentax is probably not the brand you want at this time...and may never be. How hard is that for folks to understand? To me, it's no different than if someone bought a Leica, then decided they wanted to shoot birds in flight. It's not what Leica does. Cut your losses and buy what you need.
11-18-2011, 03:03 PM   #1327
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
But do you go on the Fuji board (for example) and talk about how much you love your X100, but complain because they don't make a DSLR system of your satisfaction? Or do you just appreciate your X100 for what it is? I, too, have an assortment of cameras...Pentax, Sony, Olympus, Nikon...all for different purposes. However, if a brand doesn't have what I want....I dont' buy it! All I'm saying is that if a person is looking for a FF DSLR...or fast, long telephotos...or the most up-to-date flash system...Pentax is probably not the brand you want at this time...and may never be. How hard is that for folks to understand? To me, it's no different than if someone bought a Leica, then decided they wanted to shoot birds in flight. It's not what Leica does. Cut your losses and buy what you need.
Well I'm at the time the (only?) happy user with a nice set of Pentax. For the past years I have grown in photography, starting with K20D, and with my skills Pentax also has grown with me, going to K-7 and K-5. So I hope I'm still on the growing path and very much hoping that Pentax grows with me.

Could or would I change brands? I almost did last spring, but descided that it was to much money and that my skills where still improving and K-5 was still bringing me the needed functions. So it would be nice if K-5 wasn't the topcamera for Pentax in history, but just a step taking to the next level.

That next level is also bringing Pentax to the future where there are only 3 brands that produce DSLR (Canon/Nikon/Pentax) and all other brands took different directions. I think that future market expects from dslr something that all those nice little camera's don't bring.
11-18-2011, 03:24 PM   #1328
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
But do you go on the Fuji board (for example) and talk about how much you love your X100, but complain because they don't make a DSLR system of your satisfaction? Or do you just appreciate your X100 for what it is? I, too, have an assortment of cameras...Pentax, Sony, Olympus, Nikon...all for different purposes. However, if a brand doesn't have what I want....I dont' buy it! All I'm saying is that if a person is looking for a FF DSLR...or fast, long telephotos...or the most up-to-date flash system...Pentax is probably not the brand you want at this time...and may never be. How hard is that for folks to understand? To me, it's no different than if someone bought a Leica, then decided they wanted to shoot birds in flight. It's not what Leica does. Cut your losses and buy what you need.
.

IMO, these kinds of discussions are very useful in online camera forums such as this one. These FF themes are usually limited to one or maybe two threads in the entire forum at a time - very easy to avoid if you wish.

"Everything is great, only talk about the good things" actually gets dull fast, anyway.

.

11-18-2011, 03:57 PM   #1329
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
But you didn't get the idea. It's much simplier to compute and produce wide angle lenses with lesser flange distance.
Of course I know that, but you didn't pay attention to my idea, which was that a mirrorless camera with K-mount can have the same advantage as a camera with shorter registration distance if you allow part of the lens to protrude into the camera (since there's no mirror to block it).

(But come on - the NEX 16mm? I thought that lens was universally acknowledged to be a bad lens)
11-18-2011, 04:03 PM   #1330
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.

IMO, these kinds of discussions are very useful in online camera forums such as this one. These FF themes are usually limited to one or maybe two threads in the entire forum at a time - very easy to avoid if you wish.
I enjoy talking about the future and what might be the best course for Pentax. It's the "if they don't do what I want, I'm gonna take my toys and go home" attitudes I could do without.
11-18-2011, 04:21 PM   #1331
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
(But come on - the NEX 16mm? I thought that lens was universally acknowledged to be a bad lens)
It has improved a LOT with NEX-5n sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Of course I know that, but you didn't pay attention to my idea, which was that a mirrorless camera with K-mount can have the same advantage as a camera with shorter registration distance if you allow part of the lens to protrude into the camera (since there's no mirror to block it).
This may cause the inability to build fast wide lenses. Especially for the full frame.
11-18-2011, 07:27 PM   #1332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
It has improved a LOT with NEX-5n sensor.


This may cause the inability to build fast wide lenses. Especially for the full frame.
That NEX sure is a killer app, aint it?

I wish they made a battery grip for it tho.
11-18-2011, 09:25 PM   #1333
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Of course I know that, but you didn't pay attention to my idea, which was that a mirrorless camera with K-mount can have the same advantage as a camera with shorter registration distance if you allow part of the lens to protrude into the camera (since there's no mirror to block it).

(But come on - the NEX 16mm? I thought that lens was universally acknowledged to be a bad lens)
Well K-mount kind of has its set registration distance.. this does NOT stop the camera manufacturer from mounting the sensor closer to the back of the lens though.. sure a hell of a lot easier than changing your lens line up to protrude the mount with it's rear element.
11-18-2011, 10:10 PM - 1 Like   #1334
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
But do you go on the Fuji board (for example) and talk about how much you love your X100, but complain because they don't make a DSLR system of your satisfaction? Or do you just appreciate your X100 for what it is? I, too, have an assortment of cameras...Pentax, Sony, Olympus, Nikon...all for different purposes. However, if a brand doesn't have what I want....I dont' buy it! All I'm saying is that if a person is looking for a FF DSLR...or fast, long telephotos...or the most up-to-date flash system...Pentax is probably not the brand you want at this time...and may never be. How hard is that for folks to understand? To me, it's no different than if someone bought a Leica, then decided they wanted to shoot birds in flight. It's not what Leica does. Cut your losses and buy what you need.
My apologies if I misunderstood you. And no I'm pretty happy with the X100 but there's a good chance I'll get the Fuji interchangeable lens camera when it's released if it has the right lenses for it.

As for Pentax, it's just my opinion from using a Ricoh product, I think the brand is in great shape for the future. While admittedly different, the GXR is a great camera. The image quality is outstanding, to my eyes easily the equal of the K5. It's extremely easy to customize. It's a for lack of a better description a real photographers camera. The people that have them and use them really do love them. But it is camera for a specific type of person as is for example the Fuji X100. I think unfortunately a lot of people bought that camera because it is stylish not realizing they were getting a fixed 35mm lens camera. I love the 35mm FOV. Is that what most people want, probably not. I'm perfectly happy with 28, 35, 50 and 85 + 100-ish macro. I personally have no problems going out doing photography with just a 35mm lens. I find the limitations actually liberating. But I'm not interested in wildlife photography or sports photography or wedding photography. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate that kind of work, I just wouldn't be interested in doing it. You could never ever get me to photography somebodies wedding.....that just sounds like a huge headache. I got corralled into doing some portrait work recently. It was a miserable experience. The photos turned out fine and I got paid for it, but I don't think I would do it again, unless it's portrait work of dogs. I love dogs and they are a lot easier to get along with than people.

As for Pentax, Do I think all those things will happen in a year with the flashes, ect with Ricoh calling the shots. No. In fact some them probably won't. Full Frame, I'd say it's a good chance at some point in the future. On the other hand I don't think Pentax will ever be Nikon or Canon. That's not a good or bad thing.

I do think a lot of folks here would be better served by Canon or Nikon. They make the flashes and fast zooms that most people seem to want. I don't see a lot of room in that market for Pentax unless Ricoh could dump a lot of money into advertising too. Anyway, I'm not sure they sell all that many Full Frame cameras to begin with. If I was betting, I'd bet when Ricoh/Pentax or Pentax/Ricoh or whatever it is makes a Full Frame it will be rather unique and geared more towards people who like say a GXR or X100 or M9. I'm keeping just enough of my Pentax gear because that's what I would want. Not necessarily a range finder but a camera more geared towards photography in the 28mm to 85mm range. I can't afford an M9 so that's my Full Frame dream. I just don't see them doing what Canon and Nikon are doing. But I'm never right so I wouldn't worry to much.
11-18-2011, 11:24 PM   #1335
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No matter what you buy in the future, the chances are the your pictures won't look all that different. Pentax, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Leica or whatever. PPG is a good example. Better off buying lenses. I sort of realized this after buying 645D and M8. It is not the sensor size.
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