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11-21-2011, 09:26 AM   #1396
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QuoteOriginally posted by kunzite Quote
Ricoh (PRIC, actually)
PRICL. Don't forget the Limited.


Last edited by mattdm; 11-21-2011 at 09:26 AM. Reason: oooh funny I got lower-cased.
11-21-2011, 10:41 AM   #1397
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
But some of them are usable on FF as well! Instead of lobotomizing the whole camera, I suggest instead to implement a "variable crop" for DA lenses with the recommended crop showing in the viewfinder (LCD overlay?).
Apparently the Nikon D3 series of cameras (D3, D3s and D3x) all have this feature. DPReview explains how the viewfinder works here better than I managed to do (see their diagram showing the image circles and various crops). Nikon has implemented an APS-C crop for their DX format lenses (DA in Pentax terms), a 5:4 full frame crop, and a 1.2X crop which is just a bit larger than APS-H. It looks to be controlled by the thumb lever on the upper left side of the diopter

I've never had the chance to look through the VF of a Nikon D3, so maybe this is what they do already, but if Pentax used plastic crop sliders that moved in both the vertical and horizontal axis just behind diopter, or just behind the focusing screen it would allow the user to preview the aspect ratio and size of their output file. This would be super helpful to me as I usually output my files on 8x10 or 8.5x11 photo paper and with the native 3:2 aspect ratio, I have to plan ahead for the fairly aggressive cropping that I have to do. If I don't leave enough negative space in the short dimension of the frame the long dimension gets trimmed too much. I'm getting better at it, but it sure would be nice if the camera could show me.

Last edited by maxfield_photo; 11-21-2011 at 11:02 AM.
11-21-2011, 11:28 AM   #1398
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm still very sceptic towards APS-H, but I can easily see myself buying one (big viewfinder, decent high ISO and LV, please!) if priced closer to high-end APS-C than entry-level FF. The main issues being the sensor itself (must have a higher IQ than APS-C and be cheap enough) and the market positioning (a better alternative for high-end APS-C or just "we're unable to make a FF camera, so we had to settle for this"?)
.

Yeah - an "APS-C +" makes some sense...

IMO the only way aps-h makes sense is if it's priced and marketed as an aps-c competitor, in the upper end of that tier, maybe $1200 - $1500 for the body price range. If it's positioned against the lower end FF bodies, it seems anemic and maybe a bit ridiculous to the buyer in contrast.

As a "better aps-c", priced the same as high-end aps-c from canon/nikon, it could be smart.

I'm not convinced an aps-h sensor is really going to save that much in manufacturing cost over a FF sensor in the coming years, though.
11-21-2011, 11:40 AM   #1399
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Apart from canon and kodak, is any other company even making APS-H sensors? And canon seems to have dropped APS-H with their new 1DX. Considering that pentax sources their sensors from sony, who only makes APS-C or FF... Did i get my facts wrong here?

11-21-2011, 11:54 AM   #1400
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QuoteOriginally posted by gtl Quote
Apart from canon and kodak, is any other company even making APS-H sensors? And canon seems to have dropped APS-H with their new 1DX. Considering that pentax sources their sensors from sony, who only makes APS-C or FF... Did i get my facts wrong here?
Kodak currently makes an APS-H and Samsung will make whatever size you want. Using the same wafer that the 16MP APS-C is cut from to get a 19-20MP APS-H sensor is not much of a problem. The 36MP FF sensor rumored to be in the new D800 is cut from the same wafer as the current 16MP APS-C. FF sensors are at least 6x more expensive to make than APS-H.

APS-H came into existence for a reason. It was/is the largest you can make in a cost efficient size. APS-H was not a random size that Kodak and Canon just happen to agree on. It all has to do with cost of production.

Yes, manufacturing costs are coming down and FF is getting cheaper, but so is APS-H.

I think there is a much better chance of Pentax putting an APS-H sensor in a body and selling it for $1,500 than getting a FF from Pentax for under $3,000.
11-21-2011, 12:19 PM   #1401
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And that would even do just fine.. a 19-20 MP APS-H would cut your crop factor a bit (to what... 1.2 or so?) and better utilize all of the great FF glass.. still not to their 100% but it would be better than APS-C. And with only upping the MP count a little and increasing the sensor size, I would imagine it's low light performance could easily match the current K-5's.. It would not be a FF solution, it could still provide a cost effective upgrade path for their current market, and possibly a better solution for many action/adventure photographers using Canikons currently.
11-21-2011, 12:26 PM   #1402
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
And that would even do just fine.. a 19-20 MP APS-H would cut your crop factor a bit (to what... 1.2 or so?) and better utilize all of the great FF glass.. still not to their 100% but it would be better than APS-C. And with only upping the MP count a little and increasing the sensor size, I would imagine it's low light performance could easily match the current K-5's.. It would not be a FF solution, it could still provide a cost effective upgrade path for their current market, and possibly a better solution for many action/adventure photographers using Canikons currently.
The 1D series with the APS-H has been Canons top selling "pro" camera. The sensor size is not an issue and there are a lot of sports/wildlife guys who are not happy that the APS-H is going away.
11-21-2011, 12:32 PM   #1403
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for the older FF that may not be as sharp as the pixel peepers want on FF, APS-H might be the perfect compromise. If it comes with a better pixel pitch and the improved low iso performance of larger sensors as well it's got a lot to Recommend it. If it comes in with a sub $2000 price point as well it looks even better
It may require some creative marketing though to excel in the marketplace (hell Pentax needs some creative marketing in any case even without FF/APSH)

11-21-2011, 12:37 PM   #1404
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Who in addition to Canon's APS-H produces?
This format will disappear from the market. To which the manufacturer will be profitable to produce such a format only for Pentax?
11-21-2011, 12:44 PM   #1405
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Kodak still produces APS-H Michu (they just announced a new one in October) and since APS-H is the largest you can cut from a standard sensor Wafer (without Stitching sensors together like FF) anyone who makes them can cut them for you, you just need to place the order in a cost effective qty (so Samsung certainly would do it, I imagine so would Sony since the sensor division operates independent of the camera division
leica still makes an APS-H camera (the M8.2) and I imagine the Kodak sensor is already sold to them for a next gen lower price camera than the M9
11-21-2011, 12:49 PM   #1406
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QuoteOriginally posted by Michu Quote
Who in addition to Canon's APS-H produces?
This format will disappear from the market. To which the manufacturer will be profitable to produce such a format only for Pentax?
Kodak announced a NEW APS-H this month.

You guys realize that format is pretty irrelevant to the manufacturer. Samsung made a 30mm x 30mm MF CMOS sensor just to play with. They will make what ever size sensor you want. You want to create a new format or size? Not a problem. Yes there is a minimum order, but with wafer sizes going up to 300mm as the new standard and the quality of silicon material improving, yields are getting better and cheaper. The ability to make small production runs is becoming easier.
11-21-2011, 12:50 PM   #1407
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exactly (damn i wish they would release that 30mmx30mm it could be a very fun camera)
11-21-2011, 12:51 PM   #1408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Kodak announced a NEW APS-H this month.

You guys realize that format is pretty irrelevant to the manufacturer. Samsung made a 30mm x 30mm MF CMOS sensor just to play with. They will make what ever size sensor you want. You want to create a new format or size? Not a problem. Yes there is a minimum order, but with wafer sizes going up to 300mm as the new standard and the quality of silicon material improving, yields are getting better and cheaper. The ability to make small production runs is becoming easier.
APS-X the Pentax crop.
11-21-2011, 12:51 PM   #1409
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 1D series with the APS-H has been Canons top selling "pro" camera. The sensor size is not an issue and there are a lot of sports/wildlife guys who are not happy that the APS-H is going away.
So with that APS-H there is a need for a good DA*400mm at reasonable cost. Cheap would be f5.6, expensive f2.8. Maybe DA*400mm/f4.5 with optional TC 1.4x would do the trick. With a large APS-H sensor of 1,25x that gives a nice 500mm/f4.5 that is both not to expensive an works as a great telelens.
11-21-2011, 12:53 PM   #1410
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get fast af and you may even sell some of those unhappy canon guys (who will need an automated crop in pp now)
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