Pentax Full Frame - An official statement from Pentax (they listened!)

RonHendriks1966 · 11-08-2011, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by ogl

The main question = who is the customer?

Maybe Pentax is just one of the customers. APS-H for a mirrorless camera and Full Frame for a new DSLR?

When those big pixels of 7,4 micron are slapped on a full sized MF sensor then you have a 56 x 42mm sensor with almost 43 megapixel of those wonderfull baby's. Sounds like a good idea for 645D-II.

MrPetkus · 11-08-2011, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by Winder

I doubt HD Video is a major factor for Pentax. Screw drive lenses are noisy and not acceptable for HD video work unless you have an off camera mic and audio.

The real pro videographers shoot manual focus - they won't relinquish focus control to the camera. If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings.

ogl · 11-08-2011, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Maybe Pentax is just one of the customers. APS-H for a mirrorless camera and Full Frame for a new DSLR?

When those big pixels of 7,4 micron are slapped on a full sized MF sensor then you have a 56 x 42mm sensor with almost 43 megapixel of those wonderfull baby's. Sounds like a good idea for 645D-II.

no way. Mirrorless without video - not real.

Asahiflex · 11-08-2011, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by ogl

no way. Mirrorless without video - not real.

The Leica M8 and M9 are mirrorless and without Live View and video.

falconeye · 11-08-2011, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by MrPetkus

If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings.

I see the signs of 2012 become the year of full frame thickening.

Sony, Nikon and now the first official Canon announcement

-> Canon U.S.A. : About Canon

Photokina 2012 will mark the split of the market into APSC mirrorless amateur and FF SLR enthusiast/professional. IMHO

eddie1960 · 11-08-2011, 10:49 AM

I think you may be right Falk, I had figured it might take another year but this is where it will head in the long run
Ricoh will need to have some pretty exciting news to compete (Sony rumoured 3 FF offerings - the 3rd maybe being mirrorless)

I think a FF CCD no video and a higher end CMOS w/ the tricks plus an apsc mirrorless k mount may be the assortment that puts them in the big league. have a marginally stripped but improved k5 for high end apsc for the transition.
Ricoh will not want to be left behind I'm pretty certain they are aiming at taking canon down a notch or three given how big their rivalry is in other areas

Winder · 11-08-2011, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by MrPetkus

The real pro videographers shoot manual focus - they won't relinquish focus control to the camera. If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings.

Yes, and look at the cost of those lenses. Pentax needs to improve its current lens line up before worrying about developing an HD video line.

Serious HD videographers are not going to jump to Pentax anytime soon.

RonHendriks1966 · 11-08-2011, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

Photokina 2012 will mark the split of the market into APSC mirrorless amateur and FF SLR enthusiast/professional. IMHO

By that time Kodak and Olympus are out of the game. Not big players, or in the mayor league, but still leaving business for others.

Pentax needs te be on the good side of the line. To me that means either a Full Frame or an advanced APS-H camera.

eddie1960 · 11-08-2011, 11:04 AM

Winder , most of the serious videographers won't shoot 5 d mk 2 either, they shoot Red, Arriflex, Panavision and maybe now the new Canon. the lens prices were right in line with other cinematography lenses (and likely have T stop info available as well since the serious crew uses tstop as a standard not f stops which aren't accurate enough for seemless scene lighting transition

It's the budget doc/budget advertising, wedding guys as well as music video shooters who drive 5D sales. they need the camera to be all things to them. most of them are learning/have learned they have to shoot manual to control the focus in any case (hence all the 5 d shooters snapping up Taks and using them for video)
I thought canon still had a camera coming targeted at these guys because the new one was really a move into a new market for them. The new Red announced the same day takes some of the air out of the new canon though. The lenses will sell to Red shooters (and arriflex etc) though if they are as good as they look

Winder · 11-08-2011, 11:05 AM

What are the odds Ricoh buys Olympus? There is some really good mirrorless technology in the E-P3 and Olympus is one of the top lens manufacturers in the industry.

eddie1960 · 11-08-2011, 11:13 AM

Olympus comes with the weight of pending investigations, likely some big fines and criminal charges. the shares have lost 70% of their value since this started ($6billion - $ not Yen) which leaves current share value for a 100% buyout sitting at about 2.6 billion.... still more than pentax cost but of course it includes other businesses which are actually bigger than the camera division (like the hoya deal)
there is a serious danger of Olympus shares being delisted at the moment. with that a good chance of bankruptcy or protection for reorganization. that's when Ricoh should buy them. get the camera business clean of all the crap surrounding them currently

Winder · 11-08-2011, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

Olympus comes with the weight of pending investigations, likely some big fines and criminal charges. the shares have lost 70% of their value since this started ($6billion - $ not Yen) which leaves current share value for a 100% buyout sitting at about 2.6 billion.... still more than pentax cost but of course it includes other businesses which are actually bigger than the camera division (like the hoya deal)
there is a serious danger of Olympus shares being delisted at the moment. with that a good chance of bankruptcy or protection for reorganization. that's when Ricoh should buy them. get the camera business clean of all the crap surrounding them currently

That is my point. Olympus has some real challenges ahead of them. There is a good chance that the company as it exists now will disappear and parts will be sold off. The camera division is a small part that has struggled to gain market share (although the latest round of bodies and lenses are very good). A company like Fuji might buy it, or Ricoh. A big company might do the same thing to Olympus that Hoya did with Pentax.

TaoMaas · 11-08-2011, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

Winder , most of the serious videographers won't shoot 5 d mk 2 either, they shoot Red, Arriflex, Panavision and maybe now the new Canon.

Sorry, but you're just wrong. Unless the only videographers you consider "serious" are the ones shooting major movies. The other 99% of professional videographers never come near any of the cameras you listed.

eddie1960 · 11-08-2011, 11:49 AM

not just major movies shot on those. Tv Series as well (until recently a lot of prime time drama was shot on film and converted to hd - as a promotional gimmick an episode of house was shot on a 5d but then they reverted to how they usually shoot) - you must be aware of this since you list your occupation as editor videographer.
not to say people don't use it professionally but only at the lower end (the areas i already mentioned Docs, Ads, weddings,music video. and yep i'm sure there is some indy guy out there shooting his epic on it. There are definitely more people here. but I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't even look at pentax as an alternative in any case.
point is where quality is paramount (higher end eds, movies, higher end TV ie not reality shows) the 5 d isn't the right camera and they have no budgetary reason to use it when they can just rent the right gear for the shoot (they don't buy those bloody things in most cases they rent - I live in the studio district in toronto and see what is being used. next to Hollywood we are the biggest production center in North America (maybe now rivaled by Vancouver). If i needed to i could easily rent any of those cameras here and a huge assortment of lenses to go with them. Panavision is the leader here but you see Red and Arriflex as well

TaoMaas · 11-08-2011, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

point is where quality is paramount (higher end eds, movies, higher end TV ie not reality shows) the 5 d isn't the right camera and they have no budgetary reason to use it when they can just rent the right gear for the shoot (they don't buy those bloody things in most cases they rent - I live in the studio district in toronto and see what is being used. next to Hollywood we are the biggest production center in North America (maybe now rivaled by Vancouver). If i needed to i could easily rent any of those cameras here and a huge assortment of lenses to go with them. Panavision is the leader here but you see Red and Arriflex as well

But surely you realize that you're only talking about a very small fraction of the people who make their living in video. You're talking about folks who use the video equivalent of MF DSLRs and ignoring the rest of the market.

11-08-2011, 10:37 AM	#1025
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	They keep coming ... Originally posted by MrPetkus If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings. I see the signs of 2012 become the year of full frame thickening. Sony, Nikon and now the first official Canon announcement -> Canon U.S.A. : About Canon Photokina 2012 will mark the split of the market into APSC mirrorless amateur and FF SLR enthusiast/professional. IMHO

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11-08-2011, 09:56 AM	#1021
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by ogl The main question = who is the customer? Maybe Pentax is just one of the customers. APS-H for a mirrorless camera and Full Frame for a new DSLR? When those big pixels of 7,4 micron are slapped on a full sized MF sensor then you have a 56 x 42mm sensor with almost 43 megapixel of those wonderfull baby's. Sounds like a good idea for 645D-II.

11-08-2011, 10:07 AM	#1022
MrPetkus Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 387	Originally posted by Winder I doubt HD Video is a major factor for Pentax. Screw drive lenses are noisy and not acceptable for HD video work unless you have an off camera mic and audio. The real pro videographers shoot manual focus - they won't relinquish focus control to the camera. If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings.

11-08-2011, 10:11 AM	#1023
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Maybe Pentax is just one of the customers. APS-H for a mirrorless camera and Full Frame for a new DSLR? When those big pixels of 7,4 micron are slapped on a full sized MF sensor then you have a 56 x 42mm sensor with almost 43 megapixel of those wonderfull baby's. Sounds like a good idea for 645D-II. no way. Mirrorless without video - not real.

11-08-2011, 10:15 AM	#1024
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by ogl no way. Mirrorless without video - not real. The Leica M8 and M9 are mirrorless and without Live View and video.

11-08-2011, 10:49 AM	#1026
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	I think you may be right Falk, I had figured it might take another year but this is where it will head in the long run Ricoh will need to have some pretty exciting news to compete (Sony rumoured 3 FF offerings - the 3rd maybe being mirrorless) I think a FF CCD no video and a higher end CMOS w/ the tricks plus an apsc mirrorless k mount may be the assortment that puts them in the big league. have a marginally stripped but improved k5 for high end apsc for the transition. Ricoh will not want to be left behind I'm pretty certain they are aiming at taking canon down a notch or three given how big their rivalry is in other areas

11-08-2011, 10:50 AM	#1027
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by MrPetkus The real pro videographers shoot manual focus - they won't relinquish focus control to the camera. If you look at all the video glass (and Canon's new EF line) you have massive etched focus rings. Yes, and look at the cost of those lenses. Pentax needs to improve its current lens line up before worrying about developing an HD video line. Serious HD videographers are not going to jump to Pentax anytime soon.

11-08-2011, 10:57 AM	#1028
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by falconeye Photokina 2012 will mark the split of the market into APSC mirrorless amateur and FF SLR enthusiast/professional. IMHO By that time Kodak and Olympus are out of the game. Not big players, or in the mayor league, but still leaving business for others. Pentax needs te be on the good side of the line. To me that means either a Full Frame or an advanced APS-H camera.

11-08-2011, 11:04 AM	#1029
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Winder , most of the serious videographers won't shoot 5 d mk 2 either, they shoot Red, Arriflex, Panavision and maybe now the new Canon. the lens prices were right in line with other cinematography lenses (and likely have T stop info available as well since the serious crew uses tstop as a standard not f stops which aren't accurate enough for seemless scene lighting transition It's the budget doc/budget advertising, wedding guys as well as music video shooters who drive 5D sales. they need the camera to be all things to them. most of them are learning/have learned they have to shoot manual to control the focus in any case (hence all the 5 d shooters snapping up Taks and using them for video) I thought canon still had a camera coming targeted at these guys because the new one was really a move into a new market for them. The new Red announced the same day takes some of the air out of the new canon though. The lenses will sell to Red shooters (and arriflex etc) though if they are as good as they look

11-08-2011, 11:05 AM	#1030
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	What are the odds Ricoh buys Olympus? There is some really good mirrorless technology in the E-P3 and Olympus is one of the top lens manufacturers in the industry.

11-08-2011, 11:13 AM	#1031
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	Olympus comes with the weight of pending investigations, likely some big fines and criminal charges. the shares have lost 70% of their value since this started ($6billion - $ not Yen) which leaves current share value for a 100% buyout sitting at about 2.6 billion.... still more than pentax cost but of course it includes other businesses which are actually bigger than the camera division (like the hoya deal) there is a serious danger of Olympus shares being delisted at the moment. with that a good chance of bankruptcy or protection for reorganization. that's when Ricoh should buy them. get the camera business clean of all the crap surrounding them currently

11-08-2011, 11:24 AM	#1032
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by eddie1960 Olympus comes with the weight of pending investigations, likely some big fines and criminal charges. the shares have lost 70% of their value since this started ($6billion - $ not Yen) which leaves current share value for a 100% buyout sitting at about 2.6 billion.... still more than pentax cost but of course it includes other businesses which are actually bigger than the camera division (like the hoya deal) there is a serious danger of Olympus shares being delisted at the moment. with that a good chance of bankruptcy or protection for reorganization. that's when Ricoh should buy them. get the camera business clean of all the crap surrounding them currently That is my point. Olympus has some real challenges ahead of them. There is a good chance that the company as it exists now will disappear and parts will be sold off. The camera division is a small part that has struggled to gain market share (although the latest round of bodies and lenses are very good). A company like Fuji might buy it, or Ricoh. A big company might do the same thing to Olympus that Hoya did with Pentax.

11-08-2011, 11:31 AM	#1033
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by eddie1960 Winder , most of the serious videographers won't shoot 5 d mk 2 either, they shoot Red, Arriflex, Panavision and maybe now the new Canon. Sorry, but you're just wrong. Unless the only videographers you consider "serious" are the ones shooting major movies. The other 99% of professional videographers never come near any of the cameras you listed.

11-08-2011, 11:49 AM	#1034
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	not just major movies shot on those. Tv Series as well (until recently a lot of prime time drama was shot on film and converted to hd - as a promotional gimmick an episode of house was shot on a 5d but then they reverted to how they usually shoot) - you must be aware of this since you list your occupation as editor videographer. not to say people don't use it professionally but only at the lower end (the areas i already mentioned Docs, Ads, weddings,music video. and yep i'm sure there is some indy guy out there shooting his epic on it. There are definitely more people here. but I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't even look at pentax as an alternative in any case. point is where quality is paramount (higher end eds, movies, higher end TV ie not reality shows) the 5 d isn't the right camera and they have no budgetary reason to use it when they can just rent the right gear for the shoot (they don't buy those bloody things in most cases they rent - I live in the studio district in toronto and see what is being used. next to Hollywood we are the biggest production center in North America (maybe now rivaled by Vancouver). If i needed to i could easily rent any of those cameras here and a huge assortment of lenses to go with them. Panavision is the leader here but you see Red and Arriflex as well

11-08-2011, 11:57 AM	#1035
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by eddie1960 point is where quality is paramount (higher end eds, movies, higher end TV ie not reality shows) the 5 d isn't the right camera and they have no budgetary reason to use it when they can just rent the right gear for the shoot (they don't buy those bloody things in most cases they rent - I live in the studio district in toronto and see what is being used. next to Hollywood we are the biggest production center in North America (maybe now rivaled by Vancouver). If i needed to i could easily rent any of those cameras here and a huge assortment of lenses to go with them. Panavision is the leader here but you see Red and Arriflex as well But surely you realize that you're only talking about a very small fraction of the people who make their living in video. You're talking about folks who use the video equivalent of MF DSLRs and ignoring the rest of the market.