Pentax Full Frame - An official statement from Pentax (they listened!)

Chex · 11-20-2011, 01:17 PM

I agree, I hope that with all these sensor technologies and options Pentax/Ricoh can create a market window for themselves to really gain some market ground.. I guess it depends on which companies will be selling sensors, not just making them.. (fuji's sensor in particular).

Class A · 11-20-2011, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

This kind of argument is flawed by definition.

+1

Also, Ron, do you mean "numbers sold" or "revenue generated"? These cameras have much higher margins than a D40.

Originally posted by mattdm

Or, if you draft and perfect a very solid and respectable full frame camera that gets just about everything right except being ground-breaking, you have the Sony A900, and the market will give you a great big yawn.

I agree it was/is a great camera, but it matters

whether the manufacturer (Sony, in this instance) is respected as a manufacturer of high-end photography equipment.
the whole system makes sense (too few and too expensive Sony lenses, compared to the established two).
the sales system is ready to support your campaign (I'm sure many salesmen had good reasons to keep pushing Canikon).

Originally posted by jsherman999

Actually it got several things wrong - mediocre high-iso performance, mediocre AF, no Live View, and a paltry-yet-expensive list of new lenses. (And it carried a Sony name.)

As you can see above, we agree on the "Sony" name and the lenses.

I don't think better AF would have saved it; I'd be glad to have its AF performance in my Pentax camera.

I believe "no Live View" could be construed to appeal to the serious photographer (not necessarily nowadays anymore, but when the A900 was introduced, I believe LiveView still had a stigma of catering to shooters with a P&S history and most of the time the implementations were so bad that they didn't provide much value).

The "mediocre high-iso performance" is debatable, I guess. I don't think it was/is as bad as it was purported. I know professional photographers who much prefer the output of the A900 to what a Canon 5D can spit out.

If the A900 could mount my K-mount glass, I'd be all over it.

jackseh · 11-20-2011, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by mattdm

Or, if you draft and perfect a very solid and respectable full frame camera that gets just about everything right except being ground-breaking, you have the Sony A900, and the market will give you a great big yawn.

would have bought an A900 , if it were k-mount

Winder · 11-20-2011, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Chex

I agree, I hope that with all these sensor technologies and options Pentax/Ricoh can create a market window for themselves to really gain some market ground.. I guess it depends on which companies will be selling sensors, not just making them.. (fuji's sensor in particular).

Companies like Fuji and Samsung need to sell their sensors to keep production volume up.

Clavius · 11-20-2011, 02:28 PM

What Pentax has done with that little market it has, and that little Hoya funding and support, is amazing. Pentax has had multiple handicaps and still did fairly well. I really do think this marriage with Ricoh is going to be very fruitfull. And fullframe isn't all that far away at all.

zekewhipper · 11-20-2011, 07:22 PM

It's a form letter.

Alizarine · 11-20-2011, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by Clavius

What Pentax has done with that little market it has, and that little Hoya funding and support, is amazing. Pentax has had multiple handicaps and still did fairly well.

True. before Hoya (post-90's and pre-K-x was it?), Pentax had little recognition in most markets even in Asia. It was good that Pentax also abandoned the FF project with the Philips sensor, or it would prolly have gone down also like Contax.

**Fontan** · 11-21-2011, 12:47 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Alizarine

True. before Hoya (post-90's and pre-K-x was it?), Pentax had little recognition in most markets even in Asia. It was good that Pentax also abandoned the FF project with the Philips sensor, or it would prolly have gone down also like Contax.

I think that one certain way Pentax can shoot themselves in the balls is to cater to the needs of the forum members here.

**maxfield_photo** · 11-21-2011, 01:23 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Fontan

I think that one certain way Pentax can shoot themselves in the balls is to cater to the needs of the forum members here.

And where does your average joe go to get opinions on cameras? The internet, of course, to sites like this. Like us or not, we're the vocal minority, the promoters or the detractors depending on what kind of camera they produce. This type of camera will not be aimed at first time camera buyers anyway, we're talking about a serious professional or at least semi-professional imaging tool. A first time camera buyer can't articulate their desires based on experience, we can.

Clavius · 11-21-2011, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

And where does your average joe go to get opinions on cameras? The internet, of course, to sites like this. Like us or not, we're the vocal minority, the promoters or the detractors depending on what kind of camera they produce. This type of camera will not be aimed at first time camera buyers anyway, we're talking about a serious professional or at least semi-professional imaging tool. A first time camera buyer can't articulate their desires based on experience, we can.

How true!

This forum has a wealth of very good ideas and improvements. It would be foolish for Pentax marketing or R&D not to read along on this forum. And I always thought they did read along... Until they released the Q.

markac · 11-21-2011, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by eurostar

It's just a way to see at what happened then.

I'd say that with no other reasonably priced FF sensor on the horizon, Pentax eventually chose to make APS-C their only digital format (like Olympus did with four third) and revamped their lens line accordingly, until last year when 33x44 mm format was added.

What makes you think Pentax have no intentions to look at FF again? With all the rumours about a Pentax FF over the years, I'm sure they've been keeping a close eye on that sector of the market. A number of people seem to perceive FF as a threat. Maybe it's because they own a K5 or something and don't want to see their camera not being a range topper anymore?

RonHendriks1966 · 11-21-2011, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by Winder

Here is the problem. Sony, Nikon, & Pentax are all using the same sensors. What will really separate the cameras is the support technology. AF, SR, Lens technology and QC. Since Pentax will have access to the same sensors as the competition the future success of the line depends on advancements in these support technologies. Where can Pentax find and advantage?

Put out an APS-H body in the $1,500 price point. Don't use it to compete against FF, use it to compete against APS-C and it will be a huge success.
SR, AF, OVF, and lens quality are going to be where the advantages are found.

I skipped the K-5 so I will probably upgrade to the K-5's replacement IF I see advances in those areas. Better AF, Better SR, Better OVF, Better lenses.

Kodak's new CCDs are interesting.
Fuji's new Organic Sensor technology is interesting.
Samsung's new sensors look to be solid performers.
Sony is doing really good things with its sensors.

We have never had this many really good sensor options.

There is a lot of sence in this and I'm glad that more people do start to see that APS-H could be a very good next step in dslr.

@D40 it was just a commend that came to my mind when I was looking at that number of FF camera's that came to the market. There are only two good sellars in it (5Dii and D700) while the rest only had limited marketshare.

tohax · 11-21-2011, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

There is a lot of sence in this and I'm glad that more people do start to see that APS-H could be a very good next step in dslr..

why APS-H? I'm thinking about a bigger size. A 1.2x crop sensor. Make it 30x20mm and make it $2000 to $2500. And position it to compete against FF.
with the current image quality of K5 I'm optimistic that the future sensor tech and the sensor size increasement to 1.2x crop will surely be capable to be -at least- on par with FF.

I'm not sure pentax FF dslr will survive the battle. But I'm thinking about FF mirrorless camera, and if possible, make it K mount and WR body. It surely will compete nicely with other MLs and also attractive to those who dream of Leica M but with limited budget.

thibs · 11-21-2011, 04:32 AM

There's no point in yet another crop. Stay with APS-C or go Full Frame.
Rest is mess.

gazonk · 11-21-2011, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by thibs

There's no point in yet another crop. Stay with APS-C or go Full Frame.
Rest is mess.

AOL. But IF they're going to special order a custom sized sensor, I'd say that rather than ordering a "half empty bottle" sensor with smaller than 24x36 size, a 33x44 CMOS sensor with a lower pixel count than the current 645D (i.e. for a less expensive MF model with LV and video...) would be a more "Be Interesting" solution

11-20-2011, 01:32 PM	#1367
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye This kind of argument is flawed by definition. +1 Also, Ron, do you mean "numbers sold" or "revenue generated"? These cameras have much higher margins than a D40. Originally posted by mattdm Or, if you draft and perfect a very solid and respectable full frame camera that gets just about everything right except being ground-breaking, you have the Sony A900, and the market will give you a great big yawn. I agree it was/is a great camera, but it matters whether the manufacturer (Sony, in this instance) is respected as a manufacturer of high-end photography equipment. the whole system makes sense (too few and too expensive Sony lenses, compared to the established two). the sales system is ready to support your campaign (I'm sure many salesmen had good reasons to keep pushing Canikon). Originally posted by jsherman999 Actually it got several things wrong - mediocre high-iso performance, mediocre AF, no Live View, and a paltry-yet-expensive list of new lenses. (And it carried a Sony name.) As you can see above, we agree on the "Sony" name and the lenses. I don't think better AF would have saved it; I'd be glad to have its AF performance in my Pentax camera. I believe "no Live View" could be construed to appeal to the serious photographer (not necessarily nowadays anymore, but when the A900 was introduced, I believe LiveView still had a stigma of catering to shooters with a P&S history and most of the time the implementations were so bad that they didn't provide much value). The "mediocre high-iso performance" is debatable, I guess. I don't think it was/is as bad as it was purported. I know professional photographers who much prefer the output of the A900 to what a Canon 5D can spit out. If the A900 could mount my K-mount glass, I'd be all over it.

11-21-2011, 02:24 AM	#1376
markac Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Adelaide Posts: 84	FF is no threat. Originally posted by eurostar It's just a way to see at what happened then. I'd say that with no other reasonably priced FF sensor on the horizon, Pentax eventually chose to make APS-C their only digital format (like Olympus did with four third) and revamped their lens line accordingly, until last year when 33x44 mm format was added. What makes you think Pentax have no intentions to look at FF again? With all the rumours about a Pentax FF over the years, I'm sure they've been keeping a close eye on that sector of the market. A number of people seem to perceive FF as a threat. Maybe it's because they own a K5 or something and don't want to see their camera not being a range topper anymore?

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11-20-2011, 01:17 PM	#1366
Chex Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: The 'Stoke, British Columbia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,678	I agree, I hope that with all these sensor technologies and options Pentax/Ricoh can create a market window for themselves to really gain some market ground.. I guess it depends on which companies will be selling sensors, not just making them.. (fuji's sensor in particular).

11-20-2011, 02:02 PM	#1368
jackseh Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 118	Originally posted by mattdm Or, if you draft and perfect a very solid and respectable full frame camera that gets just about everything right except being ground-breaking, you have the Sony A900, and the market will give you a great big yawn. would have bought an A900 , if it were k-mount

11-20-2011, 02:09 PM	#1369
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Chex I agree, I hope that with all these sensor technologies and options Pentax/Ricoh can create a market window for themselves to really gain some market ground.. I guess it depends on which companies will be selling sensors, not just making them.. (fuji's sensor in particular). Companies like Fuji and Samsung need to sell their sensors to keep production volume up.

11-20-2011, 02:28 PM	#1370
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	What Pentax has done with that little market it has, and that little Hoya funding and support, is amazing. Pentax has had multiple handicaps and still did fairly well. I really do think this marriage with Ricoh is going to be very fruitfull. And fullframe isn't all that far away at all.

11-20-2011, 07:22 PM	#1371
zekewhipper Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 307	It's a form letter.

11-20-2011, 09:11 PM	#1372
Alizarine Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Manila Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,185	Originally posted by Clavius What Pentax has done with that little market it has, and that little Hoya funding and support, is amazing. Pentax has had multiple handicaps and still did fairly well. True. before Hoya (post-90's and pre-K-x was it?), Pentax had little recognition in most markets even in Asia. It was good that Pentax also abandoned the FF project with the Philips sensor, or it would prolly have gone down also like Contax.

11-21-2011, 12:47 AM - 1 Like	#1373
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	Originally posted by Alizarine True. before Hoya (post-90's and pre-K-x was it?), Pentax had little recognition in most markets even in Asia. It was good that Pentax also abandoned the FF project with the Philips sensor, or it would prolly have gone down also like Contax. I think that one certain way Pentax can shoot themselves in the balls is to cater to the needs of the forum members here.

11-21-2011, 01:23 AM - 1 Like	#1374
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	Originally posted by Fontan I think that one certain way Pentax can shoot themselves in the balls is to cater to the needs of the forum members here. And where does your average joe go to get opinions on cameras? The internet, of course, to sites like this. Like us or not, we're the vocal minority, the promoters or the detractors depending on what kind of camera they produce. This type of camera will not be aimed at first time camera buyers anyway, we're talking about a serious professional or at least semi-professional imaging tool. A first time camera buyer can't articulate their desires based on experience, we can.

11-21-2011, 01:48 AM	#1375
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by maxfield_photo And where does your average joe go to get opinions on cameras? The internet, of course, to sites like this. Like us or not, we're the vocal minority, the promoters or the detractors depending on what kind of camera they produce. This type of camera will not be aimed at first time camera buyers anyway, we're talking about a serious professional or at least semi-professional imaging tool. A first time camera buyer can't articulate their desires based on experience, we can. How true! This forum has a wealth of very good ideas and improvements. It would be foolish for Pentax marketing or R&D not to read along on this forum. And I always thought they did read along... Until they released the Q.

11-21-2011, 02:58 AM	#1377
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Winder Here is the problem. Sony, Nikon, & Pentax are all using the same sensors. What will really separate the cameras is the support technology. AF, SR, Lens technology and QC. Since Pentax will have access to the same sensors as the competition the future success of the line depends on advancements in these support technologies. Where can Pentax find and advantage? Put out an APS-H body in the $1,500 price point. Don't use it to compete against FF, use it to compete against APS-C and it will be a huge success. SR, AF, OVF, and lens quality are going to be where the advantages are found. I skipped the K-5 so I will probably upgrade to the K-5's replacement IF I see advances in those areas. Better AF, Better SR, Better OVF, Better lenses. Kodak's new CCDs are interesting. Fuji's new Organic Sensor technology is interesting. Samsung's new sensors look to be solid performers. Sony is doing really good things with its sensors. We have never had this many really good sensor options. There is a lot of sence in this and I'm glad that more people do start to see that APS-H could be a very good next step in dslr. @D40 it was just a commend that came to my mind when I was looking at that number of FF camera's that came to the market. There are only two good sellars in it (5Dii and D700) while the rest only had limited marketshare.

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11-21-2011, 03:47 AM	#1378
tohax Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 69	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 There is a lot of sence in this and I'm glad that more people do start to see that APS-H could be a very good next step in dslr.. why APS-H? I'm thinking about a bigger size. A 1.2x crop sensor. Make it 30x20mm and make it $2000 to $2500. And position it to compete against FF. with the current image quality of K5 I'm optimistic that the future sensor tech and the sensor size increasement to 1.2x crop will surely be capable to be -at least- on par with FF. I'm not sure pentax FF dslr will survive the battle. But I'm thinking about FF mirrorless camera, and if possible, make it K mount and WR body. It surely will compete nicely with other MLs and also attractive to those who dream of Leica M but with limited budget.

11-21-2011, 04:32 AM	#1379
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	There's no point in yet another crop. Stay with APS-C or go Full Frame. Rest is mess.

11-21-2011, 05:42 AM	#1380
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by thibs There's no point in yet another crop. Stay with APS-C or go Full Frame. Rest is mess. AOL. But IF they're going to special order a custom sized sensor, I'd say that rather than ordering a "half empty bottle" sensor with smaller than 24x36 size, a 33x44 CMOS sensor with a lower pixel count than the current 645D (i.e. for a less expensive MF model with LV and video...) would be a more "Be Interesting" solution