Pentax Full Frame - An official statement from Pentax (they listened!)

Winder · 12-05-2011, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Catch-22.

If Pentax does not follow the traditional DSLR format, then the legacy lenses and loyal customers will exit.

APS-H is different enough to set themselves apart, but still very much in the traditional DSLR format. That is why it would work. All the FA/legacy glass would work and most of the DA glass would work.

If Pentax is going to continue to use the same sensors as Nikon and Sony then it is going to have to really improve all of the support technologies. IF the sensors are all the same then things like AF speed/accuracy, quality/size of the OVF, speed of the SR, and lens selection and quality will all need to be improved since that is what will separate this group of cameras.

Winder · 12-05-2011, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Would it be cheap enough? Would it be good enough?
I'm afraid making such large sensors is not a trivial task; on the contrary, very expensive machinery is required. If Pentax is their only customer, for probably less than a thousand sensors per year - I can't see it happening.

Pentax is selling the current 645D as fast as they can make them. Maybe it is only 1,000 a year. It is making them money. It puts a professional grade product on the market and raises awareness of the brand among professional photographers. Say the add an EVIL 645 to the product line and only sold 1,000. If they make money on those 1,000 and those people buy 2 lenses and some accessories then Pentax is moving in the right direction.

The money is in the glass and the accessories. Camera bodies come and go.

Nesster · 12-05-2011, 09:47 AM - **1 Like**

Gee, people get all excercised, to the tune of 110 pages already!

Sorry to say, I read the Pentax statement as corporate speak - promising nothing, except what one would expect and hope a camera company was already doing - studying the market and production, figuring out possibilities. I don't see anything that would indicate a FF is any more imminent...

Kunzite · 12-05-2011, 09:51 AM

No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version.
Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)?
By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction

jsherman999 · 12-05-2011, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Winder

...

Fuji on the other hand rolled out the X100 and let the internet and user excitement do all the work. The X100 is not a perfect camera by a long shot. Fixed lens, clunky menu system, but it was a step in the right direction.

And why all the excitement? It was sexy. And Pentax has proven with the K-5 that they are good at making sexy cameras.

.

Winder · 12-05-2011, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version.
Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)?
By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction

As I said in a previous post an EVIL 645D would be a specialty camera like the Fuji 6x7 and the Maymia 7II. One body and 4 prime lenses. It would not replace the 645D and would not steal sales if it is positioned correctly. Were not talking about converting the entire line to EVIL so I don't think direction is an issue here. It is about producing a product that will attract higher end buyer and professionals. An EVIL 645D could probably be put on the market for under $4,000. There are a lot of wedding pros who would jump at a system like that if it had the right sensor. I think 10,000 units a year could be a reality with the right lenses. Take a look at the detail of the images taken with the 645D.

Pentaxor · 12-05-2011, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version.
Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)?
By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction

I take a different stand on this one.

the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it.

Pentaxor · 12-05-2011, 10:23 AM

also, this is a great PR for the Pentax brand. I mean you can't just simply dismiss a professional's word over some highly advertised camera brand saying it's the best camera in the world. the key here I believe is to compete in the higher level first down to entry-level. because right now, I don't think that Pentax can compete with the already clogged APS-C market as a priority. they have to establish their name from professionals if they won't aggressively market nor advertise their entry level cameras.

Winder · 12-05-2011, 10:28 AM

Pentax is a company that is always making small batch products like the LTD lenses, Silver K-5 and Red 645D bodies in a collectors box. They are probably the company most likely to introduce a specialty camera like a 645 EVIL or a FF Evil simple because they are setup for smaller production runs and it fits their history.

Samsung is another company that thinks outside the box and is not scared to blaze their own path. Hopefully we will see something innovative from someone this coming year.

Winder · 12-05-2011, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by jsherman999

And why all the excitement? It was sexy. And Pentax has proven with the K-5 that they are good at making sexy cameras.

.

It is a sexy camera. Fuji came out of nowhere to steal the headlines. They did not need marketing or big brand name. Pentax needs to take notes. "ME TOO" is not always the best way.

Kunzite · 12-05-2011, 10:33 AM

Selling it half the price just by crippling it by going EVF? It won't happen.
Looking at a miniature TV instead of the reality is bad, IMHO

eddie1960 · 12-05-2011, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

I take a different stand on this one.

the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it.

Ok something bad about the concept. Currently the only MF sensors are all CCD. CCD generates a lot more heat than Cmos and is the reason there is no live view CCD cameras at the moment. Any cooling system would rewuire space and then you lose the size factor. FF Cmos sensors are all stitched AFAIK and expensive to make. a MF stitched CMOS would be an order of magnitude more expensive again.
The samsung square sensor doesn't count as cost of producing it was part of R&D, and i would not be suprised if they canned that project because they couldn't hit the cost factor with a big enough sensor to appeal to the pro market (30x30 wouldn't have cut it IMO given FF would be 56x56)

Winder · 12-05-2011, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

Ok something bad about the concept. Currently the only MF sensors are all CCD. CCD generates a lot more heat than Cmos and is the reason there is no live view CCD cameras at the moment. Any cooling system would rewuire space and then you lose the size factor. FF Cmos sensors are all stitched AFAIK and expensive to make. a MF stitched CMOS would be an order of magnitude more expensive again.
The samsung square sensor doesn't count as cost of producing it was part of R&D, and i would not be suprised if they canned that project because they couldn't hit the cost factor with a big enough sensor to appeal to the pro market (30x30 wouldn't have cut it IMO given FF would be 56x56)

Leica has said that the next S2 will have a CMOS sensor, LiveView and HD Video. Leica is probably moving away from CCD all together. When the 645D was announced Pentax said they considered CMOS at that time, but IQ was still in favor of CCD on MF sensor.

I would not be surprised if the Samsung MF sensor (and a complete camera and lens) were not used to pitch Samsung CMOS to the MF crowd. Samsung could gain a lot of marketing clout if Leica started using Samsung sensors.

The next 645D will be CMOS. It will have all the advantages of CMOS sensors. Including lower overall cost and less heat.

**maxfield_photo** · 12-05-2011, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

I take a different stand on this one. the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it.

As little as full frame shooters care about mirrorless and EVF technologies, medium format shooters care that much less. And why should they? They have a beautiful, enormous, bright, lag-free, easy-to-focus OVF with full DR that doesn't drain the battery. You're talking about selling ice boxes to Eskimos, such a camera would be a colossal flop.

eddie1960 · 12-05-2011, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

As little as full frame shooters care about mirrorless and EVF technologies, medium format shooters care that much less. And why should they? They have a beautiful, enormous, bright, lag-free, easy-to-focus OVF with full DR that doesn't drain the battery. You're talking about selling ice boxes to Eskimos, such a camera would be a colossal flop.

Well not quite. there have been large numbers of Medium format Rangefinder users over the years (Mamiya has made 4+ models6x6 and 6x7, Fuji several models as big as 6x9, bronica 1x645). all were compact in comparison to regular MF cameras. So there probably is a market for someone to implement a DMF RF or EVIl (or quasi RF like the X100) At most you need 4 lenses to support it. at least you can get away with 3 to start (wide/normal/portrait)
If it can be done for the right price I think there is a big market. Mamiya still sells the Mamiya 7II for a huge price and lenses aren't cheap. CCD certainly has been a limiting factor though

As for the next Gen S2 being CMOS maybe it will but I would think S2 owners would rather they focused on getting lenses to market first. (there's what 2 lenses that are virtually un-buyable right now)

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12-05-2011, 09:14 AM	#1636
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Aristophanes Catch-22. If Pentax does not follow the traditional DSLR format, then the legacy lenses and loyal customers will exit. APS-H is different enough to set themselves apart, but still very much in the traditional DSLR format. That is why it would work. All the FA/legacy glass would work and most of the DA glass would work. If Pentax is going to continue to use the same sensors as Nikon and Sony then it is going to have to really improve all of the support technologies. IF the sensors are all the same then things like AF speed/accuracy, quality/size of the OVF, speed of the SR, and lens selection and quality will all need to be improved since that is what will separate this group of cameras.

12-05-2011, 09:22 AM	#1637
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Kunzite Would it be cheap enough? Would it be good enough? I'm afraid making such large sensors is not a trivial task; on the contrary, very expensive machinery is required. If Pentax is their only customer, for probably less than a thousand sensors per year - I can't see it happening. Pentax is selling the current 645D as fast as they can make them. Maybe it is only 1,000 a year. It is making them money. It puts a professional grade product on the market and raises awareness of the brand among professional photographers. Say the add an EVIL 645 to the product line and only sold 1,000. If they make money on those 1,000 and those people buy 2 lenses and some accessories then Pentax is moving in the right direction. The money is in the glass and the accessories. Camera bodies come and go.

12-05-2011, 09:47 AM - 1 Like	#1638
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	Gee, people get all excercised, to the tune of 110 pages already! Sorry to say, I read the Pentax statement as corporate speak - promising nothing, except what one would expect and hope a camera company was already doing - studying the market and production, figuring out possibilities. I don't see anything that would indicate a FF is any more imminent...

12-05-2011, 09:51 AM	#1639
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version. Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)? By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction

12-05-2011, 10:09 AM	#1640
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Winder ... Fuji on the other hand rolled out the X100 and let the internet and user excitement do all the work. The X100 is not a perfect camera by a long shot. Fixed lens, clunky menu system, but it was a step in the right direction. And why all the excitement? It was sexy. And Pentax has proven with the K-5 that they are good at making sexy cameras. .

12-05-2011, 10:16 AM	#1641
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Kunzite No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version. Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)? By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction As I said in a previous post an EVIL 645D would be a specialty camera like the Fuji 6x7 and the Maymia 7II. One body and 4 prime lenses. It would not replace the 645D and would not steal sales if it is positioned correctly. Were not talking about converting the entire line to EVIL so I don't think direction is an issue here. It is about producing a product that will attract higher end buyer and professionals. An EVIL 645D could probably be put on the market for under $4,000. There are a lot of wedding pros who would jump at a system like that if it had the right sensor. I think 10,000 units a year could be a reality with the right lenses. Take a look at the detail of the images taken with the 645D.

12-05-2011, 10:16 AM	#1642
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by Kunzite No, they should be making at least 6000 units per year - 1000 is a baseless guesstimation for a much more expensive version. Again, no answer to the question: why should they make an EVIL 645D? Would it really attract new customers, or just "steal" from the 645D's ones (if it would sell - maybe people won't really appreciate replacing a nice, big viewfinder with the likes of those used by those low end Sony)? By the way, IMHO EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction I take a different stand on this one. the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it.

12-05-2011, 10:23 AM	#1643
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	also, this is a great PR for the Pentax brand. I mean you can't just simply dismiss a professional's word over some highly advertised camera brand saying it's the best camera in the world. the key here I believe is to compete in the higher level first down to entry-level. because right now, I don't think that Pentax can compete with the already clogged APS-C market as a priority. they have to establish their name from professionals if they won't aggressively market nor advertise their entry level cameras.

12-05-2011, 10:28 AM	#1644
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Pentax is a company that is always making small batch products like the LTD lenses, Silver K-5 and Red 645D bodies in a collectors box. They are probably the company most likely to introduce a specialty camera like a 645 EVIL or a FF Evil simple because they are setup for smaller production runs and it fits their history. Samsung is another company that thinks outside the box and is not scared to blaze their own path. Hopefully we will see something innovative from someone this coming year.

12-05-2011, 10:31 AM	#1645
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by jsherman999 And why all the excitement? It was sexy. And Pentax has proven with the K-5 that they are good at making sexy cameras. . It is a sexy camera. Fuji came out of nowhere to steal the headlines. They did not need marketing or big brand name. Pentax needs to take notes. "ME TOO" is not always the best way.

12-05-2011, 10:33 AM	#1646
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Selling it half the price just by crippling it by going EVF? It won't happen. Looking at a miniature TV instead of the reality is bad, IMHO

12-05-2011, 10:43 AM	#1647
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by Pentaxor I take a different stand on this one. the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it. Ok something bad about the concept. Currently the only MF sensors are all CCD. CCD generates a lot more heat than Cmos and is the reason there is no live view CCD cameras at the moment. Any cooling system would rewuire space and then you lose the size factor. FF Cmos sensors are all stitched AFAIK and expensive to make. a MF stitched CMOS would be an order of magnitude more expensive again. The samsung square sensor doesn't count as cost of producing it was part of R&D, and i would not be suprised if they canned that project because they couldn't hit the cost factor with a big enough sensor to appeal to the pro market (30x30 wouldn't have cut it IMO given FF would be 56x56)

12-05-2011, 10:58 AM	#1648
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by eddie1960 Ok something bad about the concept. Currently the only MF sensors are all CCD. CCD generates a lot more heat than Cmos and is the reason there is no live view CCD cameras at the moment. Any cooling system would rewuire space and then you lose the size factor. FF Cmos sensors are all stitched AFAIK and expensive to make. a MF stitched CMOS would be an order of magnitude more expensive again. The samsung square sensor doesn't count as cost of producing it was part of R&D, and i would not be suprised if they canned that project because they couldn't hit the cost factor with a big enough sensor to appeal to the pro market (30x30 wouldn't have cut it IMO given FF would be 56x56) Leica has said that the next S2 will have a CMOS sensor, LiveView and HD Video. Leica is probably moving away from CCD all together. When the 645D was announced Pentax said they considered CMOS at that time, but IQ was still in favor of CCD on MF sensor. I would not be surprised if the Samsung MF sensor (and a complete camera and lens) were not used to pitch Samsung CMOS to the MF crowd. Samsung could gain a lot of marketing clout if Leica started using Samsung sensors. The next 645D will be CMOS. It will have all the advantages of CMOS sensors. Including lower overall cost and less heat.

12-05-2011, 11:00 AM	#1649
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	Originally posted by Pentaxor I take a different stand on this one. the production of EVIL 645D would not steal from the current 645D. it would steal or attract new customers and professionals from other brands who are using such format. considering the price of MF cameras ranging from $20k and above, the Pentax is already a steal at $9k. much more so if they make it more affordable let's say around $5k or $6k by downsizing. the biggest complaint about MF cameras are it's large bodies. if they make it more compact, this would entice customers on using it with less load outdoors and potentially for walkaround. making it mirrorless would make it more efficient in general rather than something negative. it would reduce in size, weight and gain speed, avoid mirror slaps, etc.... and thus a reduction in price. so I don't know why you are saying that EVIL/EVF is the wrong direction unless you can cite something really bad about such concept. it's not just about opinion but the ability to substantiate it. As little as full frame shooters care about mirrorless and EVF technologies, medium format shooters care that much less. And why should they? They have a beautiful, enormous, bright, lag-free, easy-to-focus OVF with full DR that doesn't drain the battery. You're talking about selling ice boxes to Eskimos, such a camera would be a colossal flop.

12-05-2011, 11:09 AM	#1650
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by maxfield_photo As little as full frame shooters care about mirrorless and EVF technologies, medium format shooters care that much less. And why should they? They have a beautiful, enormous, bright, lag-free, easy-to-focus OVF with full DR that doesn't drain the battery. You're talking about selling ice boxes to Eskimos, such a camera would be a colossal flop. Well not quite. there have been large numbers of Medium format Rangefinder users over the years (Mamiya has made 4+ models6x6 and 6x7, Fuji several models as big as 6x9, bronica 1x645). all were compact in comparison to regular MF cameras. So there probably is a market for someone to implement a DMF RF or EVIl (or quasi RF like the X100) At most you need 4 lenses to support it. at least you can get away with 3 to start (wide/normal/portrait) If it can be done for the right price I think there is a big market. Mamiya still sells the Mamiya 7II for a huge price and lenses aren't cheap. CCD certainly has been a limiting factor though As for the next Gen S2 being CMOS maybe it will but I would think S2 owners would rather they focused on getting lenses to market first. (there's what 2 lenses that are virtually un-buyable right now)