[Winder]

If you look at the longer lenses i think the opisite is true though, there is a turning point with this.

If both sensors have the same pixel density then there is no advantage. I can crop a 32MP FF down to a 16MP APS-C and get the exact same result. All APS-C is is a cropped FF. With equal pixel density you can do the exact same thing in post.

About the aperture.
Because the DOF is large with the equivelant on APS-C it also means you can shot wider more often where as with FF you might need to stopdown to increase the DOF.
So when actually shooting i doub there will be much differnce, also in noise because of this.

While it is true you would have to stop down with a FF to get the same DoF, most of the time you will find that you are trying to go wider to keep the ISO down on APS-C. I shoot a lot with my K-7 at F/2.0 with my Sigma 50mm to keep the ISO down and shutter speed up. With a My 5D I can use a higher ISO and stop down to get the same result. Even if noise were identical you have to enlarge the APS-C 1.5x as much to match the output size of FF which means that it will look "noisier".

Some might want the smaller DOF of FF but in genereal APS-C is in the sweet spot, we just need some faster lenses.
A lens may cost more then a camera but don't forget that in this digital age the cameras don't often last longer then 4 years so a lens is a better investment.

You are right.... APS-C needs faster/sharper lenses to match FF IQ. That means the lenses are more expensive for equal results. There is no real price advantage for APS-C lenses except for the consumer grade product.

BTW if you want to really have a nice dof why not get a 645D, it's almost the same price as the top of the range FF from other brands

I have a Contax 645 which I use for B&W film work. I still develop my own negatives and scan them in. I would love to have the 645D, but I will wait for the second generation. People over state the DoF advantage/disadvantage.

[unfocused]

You obviously don't have a Sigma 30/1.4 do you? - I have one and it's a stunning performer. One of my favourite lenses as it happens. Oh wait you probably read a review by a reviewer who doesn't know what they are talking about about. The Sigma 30/1.4 has been optimised for centre sharpness wide open because no one need sharp edge performance to capture the bokeh. Those who go by charts .... [sigh] further - Why would anyone use an f/2.8 lens when they want narrow DOF of f/1.4? makes no sense. __________________

I considered it, but as I said before, not everyone wants to lug a big lump around. That includes me. And I want even performance across the frame. On FF I'm happy with a 50/f2 - I don't need an f1.4 thanks. Currently on APS-C I'm using a 35/f2 'M' and a 35/F2.8 macro Limited, but ideally I'd prefer a 28/f2 DA for general purpose but doubt if they could keep the size down. So I would settle for a F2.8 or maybe f2.4.

[Pentaxians]

The gap between K5 and 645D is really big, go Pentax/Ricoh go!! Make the K1 into FF and make our dreams come true in this year end festive season!!! Cheers!

[Rondec]

I considered it, but as I said before, not everyone wants to lug a big lump around. That includes me. And I want even performance across the frame. On FF I'm happy with a 50/f2 - I don't need an f1.4 thanks. Currently on APS-C I'm using a 35/f2 'M' and a 35/F2.8 macro Limited, but ideally I'd prefer a 28/f2 DA for general purpose but doubt if they could keep the size down. So I would settle for a F2.8 or maybe f2.4.

The Sigma 30 is roughly the same size as the DA 35 macro. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a "big lump."

[RuiC]

Pentax was making some ugly cameras back then.

And it's one of the ugliest and most unwieldy-looking cameras I've ever seen

Which part didn't yo like???

[dgaies]

The Sigma 30 is roughly the same size as the DA 35 macro. I certainly wouldn't describe it as a "big lump."

A better size comparison is probably the 31/1.8, although even the 31/1.8 is a little lighter and has a smaller filter thread size than the Sigma 30.

I'm not saying the Sigma 30 is a "big lump", as it's a perfectly reasonably sized lens, but it is twice the weight and volume of the DA35/macro.

[ogl]

24 MP FF camera is planned to be launched in 2012.

[Anvh]

If both sensors have the same pixel density then there is no advantage. I can crop a 32MP FF down to a 16MP APS-C and get the exact same result. All APS-C is is a cropped FF. With equal pixel density you can do the exact same thing in post.

While it is true you would have to stop down with a FF to get the same DoF, most of the time you will find that you are trying to go wider to keep the ISO down on APS-C. I shoot a lot with my K-7 at F/2.0 with my Sigma 50mm to keep the ISO down and shutter speed up. With a My 5D I can use a higher ISO and stop down to get the same result. Even if noise were identical you have to enlarge the APS-C 1.5x as much to match the output size of FF which means that it will look "noisier".

You're right but if we look at the current sensors and older ones you will see that smaller sensors are often the ones that have higher density and are using newer technology to boost performance.
I agree that bigger sensors are better but that's because they are better by nature and not technology wise. Compacts and cellphone sensors are often the most advance ones, APS-C lags behind that with about 1/2 to a year and FF lags behind APS-C with the same amount.
MF sensors are technology wise even more ancient.

You are right.... APS-C needs faster/sharper lenses to match FF IQ. That means the lenses are more expensive for equal results. There is no real price advantage for APS-C lenses except for the consumer grade product.

But the complete camera system doesn't have to be more expensive, FF camera often cost $1000 more so if you are comparing there is more money available for APS-C lenses.
And like I said lenses last longer then the camera and hold their money better, so even if you spend $2000 more on APS-C lenses to get the roughly the same performance it still is the better investment in the long run.
Certainly if you plan to buy one or two camera's every 4 or 6 years.

I have a Contax 645 which I use for B&W film work. I still develop my own negatives and scan them in. I would love to have the 645D, but I will wait for the second generation. People over state the DoF advantage/disadvantage.

I agree with the 645D, i would use it for portraits the most but I find it to sluggish for that, it's however very capable for landscape which is where the camera was aimed at from what i read.
I'm now looking at 4x5 and 5x7 cameras for the experience.

[Anvh]

A better size comparison is probably the 31/1.8, although even the 31/1.8 is a little lighter and has a smaller filter thread size than the Sigma 30.

I'm not saying the Sigma 30 is a "big lump", as it's a perfectly reasonably sized lens, but it is twice the weight and volume of the DA35/macro.

But it's also twice as fast as the DA35/macro.
I've looked at it in the store today, the length is roughly the same though as the DA35 but it's much wider.
The price is also very decen't
I'm now really considering buying one.

I was actually planning to get the FA limiteds but the prices of those are pretty high so Maybe Sigma 30mm, 50mm and 85mm might do the trick almost just as good for half the price.

ps. i've looked at the DA limiteds as well but I don't like the character of the DA70 Bokeh.
I do have the DA40 though which is quite lovely but the DA21 is just a bit too wide to be a standard lens for me although it might still find a place in my bag...

[rawr]

24 MP FF camera is planned to be launched in 2012.

By Pentax ???

[ogl]

By Pentax ???

Said by Pentax. Peter Fang says the same
Strictly rumor: Pentax 35mm full-frame DSLR and APS-C EVIL to come in 2012: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

It seems to me - 2012 will be the year of THREE (at least) new cameras from Pentax in higher league (I mean APS-C, FF and EVIL).

[dgaies]

But it's also twice as fast as the DA35/macro.
I've looked at it in the store today, the length is roughly the same though as the DA35 but it's much wider.
The price is also very decen't
I'm now really considering buying one.

I agree, I certainly wasn't suggesting that the 35/macro is a good alternative to the 30/1.4 in terms of function. Again, much like the size comparison, the 31/1.8 is the closer lenses in terms of function to the 30/1.4 (but obviously there is a huge price difference between them as the Pentax 31 is over twice the price of the Sigma 30).

[eddie1960]

Said by Pentax. Peter Fang says the same
Strictly rumor: Pentax 35mm full-frame DSLR and APS-C EVIL to come in 2012: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

It seems to me - 2012 will be the year of THREE (at least) new cameras from Pentax in higher league (I mean APS-C, FF and EVIL).

what no ff 645D

[ogl]

what no ff 645D

It's just rumors and nothing else

[rawr]

THREE (at least) new cameras from Pentax in higher league (I mean APS-C, FF and EVIL).

If they all use Sony sensors, then let me guess the lineup:

- 24MP FF, as described;
- 24 MP APS-C K-4 (NEX-7/A77 sensor)
- 16MP EVIL (using K-5 sensor) aka Pentax NEX5N.

It could work.