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01-27-2012, 02:56 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
It's not an hatred but i don't understand the value of using DA lenses on FF camera.


If i only have DA lenses why on earth would i buy an FF camera for those lenses instead off an APS-C, could you tell me that?
It's like putting cheap brand-less tires under an Aston Martin, it just doesn't make sense...
So FF isn't for you. OTOH I have 2 DA lenses everything else (old and new) is FF so for me it's a good alternative but i'd still like to use at least one of the 2 DA lenses

My issue is with the attitude i see (form many) of why should Pentax make a FF and then use the lens argument. the market is broader than any one of us Making a FF will satisfy part of the market. Making a Ff and not making anymore apsc would be foolish and won't happen (though as time passes it may well be that FF slowly supplants apsc in the DSLR side and DA lenses become a MILC thing (and by that time hopefully EVF will be good enough that no-one will care)_

01-27-2012, 03:06 PM   #182
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I was just thinking that in 2005 I spent good money for a Motorola RAZR that couldn't even retain my missed call history, but they sold 130 million of them.

Last month I bought an iPhone 4s for pocket change and a contract extension that can't link a Contact with a Calendar entry and they're making 350,000 of them a DAY - and it sure can do a whole lot of stuff that I DON'T care about.

A CHEAP Blackberry does everything I need, nothing more - and the market is running away from RIMM as fast as it can.

The market might not care whether we want FF or not. Jus' sayin'.
01-27-2012, 03:12 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
If i only have DA lenses why on earth would i buy an FF camera for those lenses instead off an APS-C, could you tell me that?
Well if you never want to shoot full frame ever, then you wouldn't. But if you had nothing but DA lenses, and you bought a full frame camera, you could build your FF collection a lens at a time without having to start from scratch. You could also shoot your full frame lenses cropped to take advantage of the sweet spot, for a higher burst rate, or because you can't get close enough to your subject to fill the frame.
01-27-2012, 05:07 PM   #184
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250 likes to go and this becomes Pentax-official (at least in Europe)- let's keep on it!

Great effort so far, though! We're really showing how big of a voice PF has when it comes to Pentax matters
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01-27-2012, 05:24 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Granted that if you only have DA lenses, have no desire to explore the FA or D-FA lenses, and you feel no limitations from your current body, then your incentive to upgrade to FF is lower.

The 'aps-c mode' idea is valuable for folks who have one or two apsc-only lenses in addition to FF-capable lenses and would simply like the option to shoot them all on a new FF body. Don't discount this option until you've had the opportunity to try it.
Bodies have little to do with it.
Pentax won't bring out a camera to go against the Canon 1D or Nikon D4, it would be more a camera like the D700 or 5D so the features of the bodies themself would not be a huge step forward when compared to a K5.
It's the larger sensor that makes the differnce.

I haven't shot a FF yet but have with a Hasselblad several times.
But we aren't talking about that now, the thing is most new user may only have 1 or 2 lenses that is offically supported to work on FF so to get the full potential they need to buy FF lenses.
What i'm saying is if they need to buy new lenses they can jusy as easily buy into another system as well.

If a Pentax use with mostly DA lenses wants FF he doesn't have to wait and buy a Nikon or Canon right now and many have done that already.

So how large is the potential market still for a FF camera?
It will either be Pentax users with a film lenses and want/have the money to upgrade or new users, both markets are relatively small if you ask me...
01-27-2012, 05:28 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
Well if you never want to shoot full frame ever, then you wouldn't. But if you had nothing but DA lenses, and you bought a full frame camera, you could build your FF collection a lens at a time without having to start from scratch.
You still at least need to buy an FF lens though with the camera or else it's really silly...
Instead of 1000 camera you buy a 2000 which is larger and heavier but has the same image quality, that's a wast of money if you ask me if you don't make use off it.
It's better to save up a bit so you can use the potential of the camera, by that time the camera will also be a bit cheaper as well.
01-27-2012, 05:41 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
So FF isn't for you. OTOH I have 2 DA lenses everything else (old and new) is FF so for me it's a good alternative but i'd still like to use at least one of the 2 DA lenses

My issue is with the attitude i see (form many) of why should Pentax make a FF and then use the lens argument. the market is broader than any one of us Making a FF will satisfy part of the market. Making a Ff and not making anymore apsc would be foolish and won't happen (though as time passes it may well be that FF slowly supplants apsc in the DSLR side and DA lenses become a MILC thing (and by that time hopefully EVF will be good enough that no-one will care)_
I'm not saying it's a bad idea i only say that the problem is that Pentax has been mainly producing APS-C lenses for the last couple of years so to potential upgrade path you have with your lenses just isn't the same for many newer users.
So the potential market for Pentax FF gets smaller hereby.

In all honesty i think FF will be the ones getting hitted first when cameras change.
APS-C sensor already are better then FF a few years ago so if we look at the quality of them there is nothing wrong with it and they will only get better.
It's already up to a point that makes you wonder how much more quality a FF camera would give you...
01-27-2012, 05:58 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
APS-C sensor already are better then FF a few years ago so if we look at the quality of them there is nothing wrong with it and they will only get better.
And so will every other sensor. A fairer comparison would the upcoming D800's sensor with the best APSC sensor made this year.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
It's already up to a point that makes you wonder how much more quality a FF camera would give you...
The quality will be better and there's more to it than quality.

01-27-2012, 06:32 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
250 likes to go and this becomes Pentax-official (at least in Europe)- let's keep on it!

Great effort so far, though! We're really showing how big of a voice PF has when it comes to Pentax matters
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I applaud the effort Adam, but it seems to me that the letter should be directed at the respective marketing departments of Pentax and Ricoh in Japan. Surely it can't be too hard to find someone willing to translate the letter into Japanese. I'd offer to do it myself, but my Japanese is dangerously rusty, and since it needs to be in formal speech (the Japanese have several levels of formality in their language) I would recommend a native speaker.
01-27-2012, 06:45 PM   #190
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That's where it's going- plus it will be presented to the representatives who come to CP+.

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01-27-2012, 06:56 PM   #191
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Wow! That's amazing Adam! Great job!
01-27-2012, 08:15 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
And so will every other sensor. A fairer comparison would the upcoming D800's sensor with the best APSC sensor made this year.

The quality will be better and there's more to it than quality.
But those aren't here yet so it is hard to judge.

Better, better better but when is it enough?
I think we have reached that point already if you ask me...
And yes off course there is more going on then that but that's all it has going for at the moment

Almost no body these days say they need to have a FF because of the quality, it's all about the angle of view and the depth of field.
01-27-2012, 10:16 PM - 1 Like   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Almost no body these days say they need to have a FF because of the quality, it's all about the angle of view and the depth of field.
Don't forget the larger viewfinder! That's one of the best parts.
01-28-2012, 01:33 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I was just thinking that in 2005 I spent good money for a Motorola RAZR that couldn't even retain my missed call history, but they sold 130 million of them.

Last month I bought an iPhone 4s for pocket change and a contract extension that can't link a Contact with a Calendar entry and they're making 350,000 of them a DAY - and it sure can do a whole lot of stuff that I DON'T care about.

A CHEAP Blackberry does everything I need, nothing more - and the market is running away from RIMM as fast as it can.

The market might not care whether we want FF or not. Jus' sayin'.
That is why the free market is just as (un)fair as democracy. Dictatorship by the majority.

Ontopic: Pentax now has deep enough pockets to test the FF ground. Ricoh has deep enough pockets to sell the first FF body at a loss, just to steal customer away from other brands.

Canon is Ricoh's competitor in the MFP copier/printer business, and Ricoh bought Pentax to extend that competition on another front. So, I really don't think we're going to have to worry about the FF body.
01-28-2012, 04:28 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Pentax won't bring out a camera to go against the Canon 1D or Nikon D4, it would be more a camera like the D700 or 5D so the features of the bodies themself would not be a huge step forward when compared to a K5.
It's the larger sensor that makes the difference.
And neither do they need to. It doesn't even have to be more than a small step forward from the K5, many people would be more than happy owning a K5 with a FF sensor (the Pentax equivalent of the D700/5D mkII).

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
But we aren't talking about that now, the thing is most new user may only have 1 or 2 lenses that is offically supported to work on FF so to get the full potential they need to buy FF lenses.
What i'm saying is if they need to buy new lenses they can jusy as easily buy into another system as well.
But they don't want to ! Pentax users have for years been crying out for a FF camera so they don't have to move over to another brand to gain the advantages of FF. They want to have the features Pentax offers (WR, FA Ltds, solid build, ergonomics etc. to say nothing about retaining in-camera SR) in FF. If they buy into another system they still have to buy new lenses don't they.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
If a Pentax user with mostly DA lenses wants FF he doesn't have to wait and buy a Nikon or Canon right now and many have done that already.
And many more will ... and take all their expensive lens buying $$$ with them - if Pentax don't bring out a FF. It's all about playing the long game.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
So how large is the potential market still for a FF camera?
It will either be Pentax users with a film lenses and want/have the money to upgrade or new users, both markets are relatively small if you ask me...
It doesn't matter if it's a small market now so long as it's profitable, and it will be with the additional lens sales. Fact is though it's growing, fast, in Asia and if Pentax don't have an upgrade path it will affect sales all the way down the product line.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
APS-C sensor already are better then FF a few years ago so if we look at the quality of them there is nothing wrong with it and they will only get better.
It's already up to a point that makes you wonder how much more quality a FF camera would give you...
I don't get this Stefan. You are photographically speaking a knowledgeable guy but how is the reason why people buy FF so alien to you ? It's not about the IQ quality per se, it's about the low DoF, the width (WA lenses really are WA) and so on.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Almost no body these days say they need to have a FF because of the quality, it's all about the angle of view and the depth of field.
Exactly ! You are now answering the questions you posed yourself, re IQ.


QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax now has deep enough pockets to test the FF ground. Ricoh has deep enough pockets to sell the first FF body at a loss, just to steal customer away from other brands.
As already mentioned, selling a FF camera in the hope of picking up greatly increased profits from sales of consumables isn't an alien concept. The makers of Printers, copiers etc. do that already ...... oh !

Last edited by Frogfish; 01-28-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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