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02-11-2012, 07:24 PM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
Wait for Canon's response and any announcements at Photokina. At least you can manual focus the Kmount lenses on a Canon. If they bring out something comparable to the D800, I'm in.

I still hope for an FF announcement this year from Pentax.
Does Canon have a CIF?

02-11-2012, 09:57 PM   #242
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a FF one, will make old lens more usable and there are a bunch of good lens.
02-12-2012, 11:39 AM   #243
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I'm in favor of the ff and any lenses that come along with it. Thank you Adam for the power to help make this a reality.
02-12-2012, 11:42 PM   #244
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There is so much speculation about a Pentax FF, which can seem a little tiring at times but when I think about making the switch to Nikon, I remember why I have Pentaxes in the first place, and then remember why I want a Pentax FF, so speculation continuing:
Does is seem to any one else, that this new 560mm prime they've announced is not only EXTREMELY long, but also EXTREMELY high end, if they're not going to produce a FF? I myself do a bit of birding, so no lens is too long, even a 560 on crop, but seriously, a 560mm prime on a cropped sensor is HUGE, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Why? Well a prime that long is a high end lens, even if only f5.6 and not a 'star' or limited, we've still gotta be talking about $2000+ I think, possibly closer to $3000. it looks pretty high quality to me. The other thing is, it looks BIG even for the FL, which makes me think that is has POSSIBLY been designed with the ability to be used on a FF without excessive vignetting. Basically what I'm saying is, a lens THAT long and THAT expensive just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if the best camera it can be mounted on is a K5 or newer equivalent. Yes, there is cause to buy a $1500 camera and a $3000 lens, I myself have put the DA 50-135 on a K-r, but it still seems weird to me to release a lens that serious and not have a more serious body on the map somewhere.

02-13-2012, 12:11 AM   #245
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I'm convinced (or at a bare minimum, optimistically hoping) there'll be an FF. I'm not optimistic about that FF including an OVF.
02-13-2012, 01:28 AM   #246
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I agree with one of Falk's earlier posts. I just don't see this happening. There are just too many expensive hurdles. Also, what's the market? Pentax shooters occupy 5% of sales, So lets say, 20 % of those owners have a need or want for a FF camera and will actually buy one. That's a 1% market share. I guarantee you that Canikon shooters are not switching unless the camera is dirt cheap and out performs all other FF cameras.

Nikon's D800 won't drop in price much for awhile, they are consistent with holding prices (the D700 launch price was $2999 and is now $2699 -4 years later). Wait and watch, this camera will be sold out for the rest of 2012, no reason to drop the price.

So the only chance Pentax has is a near or sub $2000 FF body that matches or exceeds the D800. The D800 has raised the bar quite a bit and the Pentax FF would have to use the same sensor.

There's so much more to this than a body though. By nature, a FF camera is either a high end user or a professional. They need to get users to switch from Canikon to get more than a 1-2% market share and make this profitable.
Pentax would have to:
1) Revamp the flash system
2) introduce a huge selection of FF lenses, zooms and primes at the same time as a new body. 2-3 lenses a year will not do. Huge investment to launch a camera and 12-15 lenses at the same time along with a new flash system.
3) offer some type of express (pro) service system in major markets (USA, EU and others)
4) Convince Lens rental companies to carry the gear, particularly across all major markets in the USA.
5) go back to retail sales. Pentax has pretty much gone the online route, which is fine and is the way of the future, but they will need a dealer network to support this.
6) scrap the DA* series motor system as it currently is. I's been over a year since I shot Pentax but I can't tell you how much I hated those lenses. If it's somehow improved, then fine but I still see survey's here about this issue.
7) Spend buckets of money on advertising. Magazines, TV and anywhere they can reach Canikon shooters.
8) This is probably the most important. Right after launching the first FF 36MP camera, they will need to launch another that is better at High ISO's, along the lines of a D3s (D4) but around a D700 price.

Now I'd like a FF Pentax myself. I shot the line for 30 years and still love some of the features that the cameras offered. Better design layout and one thing in particular, I loved the WB adjustments on the K20D.

But I think doing this is a recipe for company failure and I'm posting this because I don't want to see that. Is Ricoh prepared to invest huge sums of money for marginal returns over the next couple of years?
02-13-2012, 02:49 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
So the only chance Pentax has is a near or sub $2000 FF body that matches or exceeds the D800. The D800 has raised the bar quite a bit and the Pentax FF would have to use the same sensor.
Well if that is indeed the case, I'd have no interest in it anyway, since this 36MP business is the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. There is simply no need for that many pixels on the D800. Professional landscape photographers won't be using the D800 (they would use a bigger format) and no one else needs 36mp. Maybe that sounds presumptuous, but even if people THINK they can use that many pixels for other styles of photography, they can't. More thanabout 8mp is normally unnecessary. 36mp is just going to take up space and create noise. All that it would take for me to switch to a D700 from my Pentax, is for Pentax to announce they're releasing a FF with any more than 24mp.
02-13-2012, 03:04 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
I agree with one of Falk's earlier posts. I just don't see this happening. There are just too many expensive hurdles. Also, what's the market? Pentax shooters occupy 5% of sales, So lets say, 20 % of those owners have a need or want for a FF camera and will actually buy one. That's a 1% market share.
Strange example. You do realize yourself that this means that 1 out of 100 DSLR's sold (regardless of the brand) and 1 out of 4 Pentax DSLR's sold would then be a Pentax FF camera. To me that looks like a lot. I mean, A LOT. I.e. Pentax would be stupid not to announce and sell a FF model then.

02-13-2012, 03:05 AM   #249
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You are right to a degree. The sensor size is far too big for the wedding and event shooter to do a start to finish wedding. The file sized are going to be a big issue as well. I think landscape shooters will look at this camera as an alternative to MF. Commercial and studio shooters will like it.

I participate on a private worldwide wedding, boudoir etc professional forum and there are a ton of pre-orders even from the wedding guys. Most plan to shoot with a D3s or D4 for all the speed or interior stuff and anything in better light or outside would be the D800.

The first sample images from the D800 shows a little cleaner image than the D700 at ISO6400 and above. So it's capable of clean high ISO shots although the D3s and D4 are superior.
02-13-2012, 03:13 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Strange example. You do realize yourself that this means that 1 out of 100 DSLR's sold (regardless of the brand) and 1 out of 4 Pentax DSLR's sold would then be a Pentax FF camera. To me that looks like a lot. I mean, A LOT. I.e. Pentax would be stupid not to announce and sell a FF model then.
I'm making and assumption that 20% of Pentax shooters would buy FF. I highly doubt that would be the case.

You are forgetting that Pentax has a 5% market share and that hasn't moved since the K100 days. 1% FF sales is a small number and there are lost sales to consider as well. A Pentax shooter will buy a FF instead of an APSc body. So the net gain is even smaller, probably half. Couple that with little or no profit (keeping the price aggressive enough to get people to switch and all the up front R&D) and this is a recipe for disaster unless Ricoh want or can afford to bankroll the losses.

This isn't the 645D series. That camera is an entirely different shooter who can live with 3-6 lenses and will wait as new ones become available. The event shooter who wants FF will want at least 6 primes (and all top notch) to choose from as well as at least 4 zooms (12-24, 24-70, 24-120, 70-200).

Last edited by Peter Zack; 02-13-2012 at 03:20 AM.
02-13-2012, 08:26 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Strange example. You do realize yourself that this means that 1 out of 100 DSLR's sold (regardless of the brand) and 1 out of 4 Pentax DSLR's sold would then be a Pentax FF camera. To me that looks like a lot. I mean, A LOT. I.e. Pentax would be stupid not to announce and sell a FF model then.
Whoa!

You mean that 25% of all those K-x, K-r, and K-5 purchasers in the Pentax market are suddenly going to find $5,000 to invest in a new Pentax FF body and lenses?

When in Canikon land less than 10% of their (very "pro") user base does?

It's a fantasy. Pentax FF would maybe appeal to under 10% of all Pentax DSLR purchaser because of the price alone. And that's being generous.

The way the FF and MF markets are being positioned at the industrial supply level all points to distinct price separation and high-margins between those and commodity APS-C.

We'll have to see what Sony does, but FF on Pentax is likely 2 years away at least. Maybe more if this market dynamic continues. The only way to break that dynamic is for someone else to manufacture FF sensors at par with the D700 performance and for much less money than Sony is charging. Until that happens, Pentax FF is a pipe dream.
02-13-2012, 09:02 AM - 3 Likes   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Whoa!

You mean that 25% of all those K-x, K-r, and K-5 purchasers in the Pentax market are suddenly going to find $5,000 to invest in a new Pentax FF body and lenses?
I'd say that many of those purchasers already have several thousand dollars in FF glass. All the FA stuff, plus the DA 300, DA 200, 60-250, etc., etc., etc...

And when you add a FF you'll grow the brand. Right now there are people who AREN'T buying Pentax because it's a dead-end; once you want to go past 'serious amateur' camera you have to ditch your entire investment in lenses.
02-13-2012, 10:31 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I'd say that many of those purchasers already have several thousand dollars in FF glass. All the FA stuff, plus the DA 300, DA 200, 60-250, etc., etc., etc...

And when you add a FF you'll grow the brand. Right now there are people who AREN'T buying Pentax because it's a dead-end; once you want to go past 'serious amateur' camera you have to ditch your entire investment in lenses.
A lot of people here make great points, even though it's hard for me to admit that it might be very unlikely for Pentax to release a full-frame camera, but ElJamoquio makes a very good point though.

I'm done with Pentax glass and equipment now because it's a dead-end for me. I have many friends that simply don't take Pentax seriously because of this dead-end that they see as well. While it's inevitable that they (Pentax) are looking at profits when considering full-frame, a full-frame is a vote of confidence from the company itself.

It's a way for the company to tell its current consumers, and future possible consumers, that they take photography seriously as well.

When the distinctive Pentax design and gold-rimmed lenses are seen used by professionals more - the reputation of the brand grows.

When Henry Rollins travels the world, shoots and gets interviewed to reveal he uses a Canon 5D, people notice. When Pete Souza is shown using two Canon 5Ds with the distinctive red rimmed L lenses, people notice. When NFL photographers are all Canon and Nikon full-frame shooters... people notice.

Imagine though, in that sea of gray L lenses and black Nikon lenses, there's a Pentax shooter with a 560mm.

Not saying that this will skyrocket Pentax's reputation, but I am saying that it's something worth consideration. And the fact that there are so few Full-frame camera makers, if Pentax releases one it'll certainly make some sort of waves. As I've mentioned in the past, Sony's a900 was really lackluster - but it did put Sony's name on many review blogs and many people's attention. The fact that they had the a900 spawned many of the original Sony shooters in Malaysia (growing economy, wealthy middle class with spending power, think mini-baby boomers).
02-13-2012, 11:28 AM   #254
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i don't!

I wish that Ricoh Pentax bring an FF camera to the range but I do not sign any petition for the time being. The reason is I eventually got the K5 and while I miss some features on FF I am otherwise very satisfied with the K5. That means I am not going to buy an FF body after a release. I hope those friends who ask the FF body from the company are sure they will buy the camera when produced.
02-13-2012, 04:57 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Right now there are people who AREN'T buying Pentax because it's a dead-end; once you want to go past 'serious amateur' camera you have to ditch your entire investment in lenses.
This succinctly cuts to the heart of the problem, and I don't think Pentax HQ understands this simple point. I had hoped that Ricoh might force them to explore a FF option in order to compete with Canon, but now that the imaging portion of PRI has been handed over to Pentax, it seems unlikely that it's going to happen.
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