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01-19-2012, 07:11 PM   #16
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I think, some of the investments which have to be done for a FF, are over due nethertheless.

The Flashes? Could absolutly need a "upgrade", not to mention the P-TTL-Protocol

The Lenses?
I do like my Da* and ltd. , i want more of these kinds of lenses, not only cheapy, creepy, plasic mounts.....

01-19-2012, 07:17 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
people wouldn't need a facebook account to participate
I know I don't have one, don't want one and ain't getting one.
01-19-2012, 07:27 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Which is exactly why I think going full frame is a HUGE MISTAKE and hope Pentax does not go this route. It will bankrupt the company unless Ricoh is prepared for a long term front end investment that will have no returns for 5 years.

Pentax has a 5% market share and the only people who will buy FF are current Pentax owners. You will get no business from Canon or Nikon shooters who already have a FF camera. Plus going FF is not one body. Does Pentax make a Landscape shooters camera at 24-36MP Hi-res sensor or a wedding shooters camera at 16-20MP high ISO sensor? Or both? How long would it take to create and build 12-16 lenses for this and a new flash system (the current flashes are not nearly good enough for a pro grade system).

All this would require a huge investment for what? 2% of the market if they are lucky? Don't do it Pentax. You build great APS-c cameras, keep doing that.

Yeah, this. It's not a fantasy world where we can have it all. Pentax needs to continue making smart moves. I don't doubt that many core fanatics who frequent here would buy into a full-frame Pentax system, but that's not enough to support a company. Many people who are clamoring for a full frame Pentax only want it to be there, not to actually buy it. That's really not a viable plan. And it inevitably will take away from APS-C development.


Peter, you want to create a counter-petition? I'm in.
01-19-2012, 08:03 PM   #19
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It's a shame that you "grow up" on Pentax, then have to abandon ship when you get to the "pro" level. FF would appear to solve that issue, but the company is already spread too thin and wouldn't be able to compete. If you're willing to make the investment into a $2,000 camera body, you're going to have to justify NOT going with a 5DII or D700. So unless you can bring out the same backdrop as Canon or Nikon (lens lineup, flash setup, and yes . . . pro service and support) you are going to be the Sony A900.

Not to say they won't do FF, and not to say it won't be a great option for the advanced amateur (which is the market the original 5D was created to fill). Pros are still going to jump ship.

01-19-2012, 08:16 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Pentax has a 5% market share and the only people who will buy FF are current Pentax owners.
I don't think this is true. You have to consider the expanding markets, and the current m43/aps-c shooters now who eventually will upgrade to FF. If Ricoh has an affordable, compelling product in that tier, they can get a chunk of that new business - folks who have no investment in Nikon or Canon lenses now. It won't be just existing Pentax shooters.


QuoteQuote:
...How long would it take to create and build 12-16 lenses for this and a new flash system (the current flashes are not nearly good enough for a pro grade system).

All this would require a huge investment for what? 2% of the market if they are lucky? Don't do it Pentax. You build great APS-c cameras, keep doing that.
.

But you're assuming that it's easier to innovate and compete in the aps-c tier. It's not. Pentax competes in aps-c DSLR with more players, and with the encroachment of mirrorless, even more, now. Companies like Fuji, Panasonic, Samsung are going to almost be able to squeeze the lower-end aps-c DSLR out of existence.

If Ricoh wants to enrich the main asset they bought - K-mount - they will probably have to move into FF sooner or later.

A lens roadmap that brings 2 or 3 new lenses each year fleshes out the Pentax lens lineup in just 4 years. Ricoh is probably looking to have a K-mount revenue stream for decades.


.
01-19-2012, 08:23 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Yeah, this. It's not a fantasy world where we can have it all. Pentax needs to continue making smart moves. I don't doubt that many core fanatics who frequent here...
Careful ^^ , and try to keep it civil. You're choosing to insult a lot of folks who frequent this forum, not to mention the forum owner. We don't need another FF shouting match.

One of my worries is this - what would Ricoh's incentive be to invest a lot in a tier (aps-c) that's being entered by an invasive technology (mirrorless) being delivered by increasingly aggressive and competent players (Fuji, Samsung, Panasonic, even Oly.)

A Pentax aps-c DSLR doesn't have the big two to compete against, they have the big two plus everyone else who can make a DSLR, SLT or mirrorless camera and a set of lenses.

If Ricoh tries to enter mirrorless in a big way, they may find that retaining K-mount is a drawback, because it keeps their kits large and unwieldy compared to the other mirrorless players. Thus, they drop the K-mount idea for their new mirrorless bodies.

While this is happening, sensor costs decrease and wafer yields increase, making the $1500 sweet spot margin-friendly for a FF body - thus squeezing aps-c DSLR from the top, also.

The truly size-conscious folks are buying these new mirrorless bodies with advanced EVFs and blazing-fast on-sensor PDAF. At some point, Pentax's 5% of a shrinking aps-c DSLR market starts looking anemic to Ricoh. And if they have no FF K-mount sales, because they chose not to go that route back in 2012... Maybe goodbye, K-mount.

If K-mount is the major asset Ricoh purchased here, and it is, they won't let it die on the vine. An 18-month ROI is not required by them.




.

Last edited by jsherman999; 01-19-2012 at 08:30 PM.
01-19-2012, 08:24 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
You're not talking about me, thats' for sure. I'm going to buy whatever new APS-C comes out in addition to the FF if they produce one.

No he wasn't talking about you, but for some strange reason you go on to defend yourself as if he was talking about you.




QuoteQuote:
I always put my money where my "mouth" is.

My gear...don't ever mistake me for a casual Pentaxian, as I have been here for the long run.

EL100
(2) *istD,
K10D
K5
645
(2) K1000
(2) K2
Super Program
Me Super
MG
P5
Optio W10
Optio W80
Optio WG

About 20 Pentax Flashes.
About 30 Lenses.
About a mile of flash cords and a ton of accessories.
Many other Pentax cameras that I have sold along the way

So don't try and invalidate my loyalty to Pentax.
01-19-2012, 08:32 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Careful ^^ , and try to keep it civil. You're choosing to insult a lot of folks who frequent this forum, not to mention the forum owner. We don't need another FF shouting match.
Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an insult. Do you mean that the frequent posters here aren't core fanatics? I'd think that would be the insult!

01-19-2012, 08:37 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Sorry, I didn't mean that to be an insult. Do you mean that the frequent posters here aren't core fanatics? I'd think that would be the insult!
We're proud of our core fanaticism!

Last edited by jsherman999; 01-19-2012 at 09:35 PM.
01-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #25
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where does this endless pentax can't afford to compete bs come from, maybe under hoya (where the market share was cut in half) but Ricoh has 5 x hoya capitol and is 4x the size of nikon. their core industry is in retraction mode and they bought pentax in part as diversification with the intent of growing the business that will take some serious capital and marketing. no more sitting on 2 bodies and an incomplete lens line. they have said a 4 body line is needed , that the top would be FF is logical. The K01 is Hoyas last influence on the line and the delay was likely so it could benefit from some of ricohs input (maybe the new da 40xs for instance)
the real ricoh impact will start to show in september at photokina
01-19-2012, 10:42 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Yeah, this. It's not a fantasy world where we can have it all. Pentax needs to continue making smart moves. I don't doubt that many core fanatics who frequent here would buy into a full-frame Pentax system, but that's not enough to support a company. Many people who are clamoring for a full frame Pentax only want it to be there, not to actually buy it. That's really not a viable plan. And it inevitably will take away from APS-C development.

Mountain of Madness - YouTube

Peter, you want to create a counter-petition? I'm in.
I would join you for the hell of it. I already got 645d and M8. I don't need anything in between.


I do think that there is one way for Pentax to succeed with FF. In fact it may be the only way. That is to have a FF model that is stripped down with not a whole lot of features, and it will cost less than $1,000. Maybe even cheaper. Personally, I don't even need AF, but that maybe a bit too stripped down for most. I say no SR, no live view, no burst mode (ok, maybe 3 fps), no pop up flash. Manual control and A mode only. No in camera processing. But, with a kick ass sensor and a viewfinder. K mount is fine, and a slew of adapter for m mount, Nikon, and canon lenses, and so on.

They maybe able to undercut the whole industry with that. It won't compete with aps-c models with bells and whistles that not many would use.
01-19-2012, 11:02 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I would join you for the hell of it. I already got 645d and M8. I don't need anything in between.


I do think that there is one way for Pentax to succeed with FF. In fact it may be the only way. That is to have a FF model that is stripped down with not a whole lot of features, and it will cost less than $1,000. Maybe even cheaper. Personally, I don't even need AF, but that maybe a bit too stripped down for most. I say no SR, no live view, no burst mode (ok, maybe 3 fps), no pop up flash. Manual control and A mode only. No in camera processing. But, with a kick ass sensor and a viewfinder. K mount is fine, and a slew of adapter for m mount, Nikon, and canon lenses, and so on.

They maybe able to undercut the whole industry with that. It won't compete with aps-c models with bells and whistles that not many would use.
KX-x ?
01-19-2012, 11:16 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
KX-x ?
I would call it, "Pentax FK."
01-19-2012, 11:19 PM - 1 Like   #29
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i've no particular interest in a FF camera but i'll wave the flag for the rest o' ya if it will help.
01-20-2012, 12:13 AM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Not like the people who buy and support their current product line and hope for continuing innovation and evolution of the same. Those traitors!
Why buy a camera that I don't want? I bought the K20d because the digital age was leaving me behind. Soon after the K7 came out, I yawned. The K-x came out, I yawned. The K-r came out, I yawned. The K5 came out, I yawned. The 645d came out, now that got my attention, but it's out of my price range. The Q came out, I snickered. There's talk of a new mirrorless K-01 <yawn>

I vote with my dollars, why should I encourage them to continue on with the status quo? When Pentax releases a camera that I want, I'll buy it, until then I'll keep buying old film lenses and they'll keep losing my business. You may think me disloyal, but I feel that loyalty has to be earned. Maybe I'll get an FA 31 ltd to support them, those are pretty sweet, but I refuse to spend a dime on a camera that I don't want.
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