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03-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
D700 hanging around actually makes it harder for pentax to enter effectively
I don't know, the D700 suddenly looks very old now with its low resolution. Pentax needs an FF camera with much higher resolution than that and some very user-friendly way to use lenses made for APS-C (for instance with hybrid VF).

03-03-2012, 02:59 PM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
k-5: $1100
+ FF sensor $500
- APS-C sensor $100

= $1500
+ Larger shake reduction system = ?

+ Making it the same size and weight as the K-5 = ?


QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Pentax needs an FF camera with much higher resolution than that and some very user-friendly way to use lenses made for APS-C (for instance with hybrid VF).
I don't really need much higher resolution. I accept that it's still very exciting to people, but I hope they provide either some raw-level pixel binning or a clever format like Canon's sRAW/mRAW.

Assuming the camera wasn't much bigger, I could live with a hybrid viewfinder which went to square for APS-C-format lenses.
03-03-2012, 03:32 PM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
+ Larger shake reduction system = ?
Right now it takes lenses that are quite long to run into the edges of the shake reduction system, and we're only talking about 50% more travel if you assume the same functionality. I don't really think it's much more than a rounding error.
03-03-2012, 07:16 PM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
For what it's worth, the "sensors are partly designed by Nikon" is probaby marketing B.S. intended to save face for Nikon. It's similar to the "joint design" of Pentax and Samsung for the K20D/K-7 sensor. The actual engineers doing the actual design are almost certainly all from the chip-making company, but they are probably working to specs and design guidelines from the customer. ("Please prioritize resolution", or dynamic range, or whatever.) That's not necessarily bad, but I think it's extremely unlikely that there's Nikon secret-sauce involved. It's just not their business, and I don't see cross-company engineering collaborations ever working that way.
The understanding from sources like Thom Hogan is that Nikon did the A/D and some of the photolith (which Nikon is a supplier of). Sony needed a customer with volume and Nikon needed a fab. Sony sees its cameras as adjunct to their consumer electronics line. Nikon is a camera manufacturer with a strong client base in the professional category. There has been lots of talk of Nikon perhaps making their own sensors. They have the ability to do so, but it would suck up a lot of cash and they'd be a one-trick pony. Sony is the dominant sensor manufacturer by far in the industry. Even Canon buys from Sony.

This type of collaboration with exclusives is not unusual. It is done all the time in the auto industry. The other precedent is Leica's design of the micro lenses for they M9 sensor. Nikon doesn't have a secret sauce; they just want it done their way. It very much explains why Nikon gets first dibs at all new Sony FF sensors, even before Sony's camera arm does. Nikon has huge buying power based on established market share. Pentax does not. Sony is making big margins off of Nikon and will not rock that boat to potentially drive down margins.

03-03-2012, 09:17 PM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The understanding from sources like Thom Hogan is that Nikon did the A/D and some of the photolith (which Nikon is a supplier of). Sony needed a customer with volume and Nikon needed a fab. Sony sees its cameras as adjunct to their consumer electronics line. Nikon is a camera manufacturer with a strong client base in the professional category. There has been lots of talk of Nikon perhaps making their own sensors. They have the ability to do so, but it would suck up a lot of cash and they'd be a one-trick pony. Sony is the dominant sensor manufacturer by far in the industry. Even Canon buys from Sony.

This type of collaboration with exclusives is not unusual. It is done all the time in the auto industry. The other precedent is Leica's design of the micro lenses for they M9 sensor. Nikon doesn't have a secret sauce; they just want it done their way. It very much explains why Nikon gets first dibs at all new Sony FF sensors, even before Sony's camera arm does. Nikon has huge buying power based on established market share. Pentax does not. Sony is making big margins off of Nikon and will not rock that boat to potentially drive down margins.
I don't really see how there's a line drawn in the sand where the D7000 and the K5 can have the same chip, but it's absolutely impossible that the D800 and the K3 can't have the same chip.
03-03-2012, 09:31 PM   #426
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Anyone that claims the D700 is old technology obviously has not used one and observed how great a job that old technology does. Why do you think Nikon is still selling them and people are still buying them?

Tom

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I don't know, the D700 suddenly looks very old now with its low resolution. Pentax needs an FF camera with much higher resolution than that and some very user-friendly way to use lenses made for APS-C (for instance with hybrid VF).
03-03-2012, 09:54 PM   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Even Canon buys from Sony.
Interesting. What do they buy?
03-03-2012, 10:06 PM   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Sony is making big margins off of Nikon and will not rock that boat to potentially drive down margins.
If that is true, and I'm not saying it is, then that indicates the Sony wears the daddy pants in that relationship, and it is they who tell Nikon what's what, and how it's gonna be. If Nikon has some exclusive arrangement with Sony, then why do they allow Sony to sell to Canon? I think you attribute too many human emotions such as pride and jealousy to corporations. At the end of the day, they're all just in it for the money. It makes no sense to refuse to sell to a client who wishes to purchase your product.

03-03-2012, 11:40 PM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Nikon has huge buying power based on established market share. Pentax does not. Sony is making big margins off of Nikon and will not rock that boat to potentially drive down margins.
Allright, I have seen this point and it's counterpoints dozens of times now. Do this have a source that you can link to so we can put this one to bed?
03-04-2012, 04:36 AM   #430
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The understanding from sources like Thom Hogan is that ....

Thom Hogan speculates a lot and he has a tendency to be wrong!
03-04-2012, 05:57 AM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If as Falk has speculated a FF sensor costs $300 to produce give or take and is being flogged at $500
No misquotes please.
I speculated that an FF sensor sells at $300 (ASP) with a premium price like $500 possible for extra features like an embedded column-parallel A/D converter or an extra large full well capacity.

The cost for the semiconductor vendor was more like $120.
03-04-2012, 09:49 AM - 1 Like   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Interesting. What do they buy?
P&S sensors.

Sony is also the dominant cellphone sensor manufacturer.
03-04-2012, 11:54 AM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by ennacac Quote
Anyone that claims the D700 is old technology obviously has not used one and observed how great a job that old technology does. Why do you think Nikon is still selling them and people are still buying them?

Tom
Please note that I didn't say that "D700 is old technology", I said that the D700 looks old with its low resolution. 12mp is really not much these days. And my main point was that if and when Pentax enters the FF market, they will need much higher resolution than that (combined with some good viewfinder solution) in order to make the upgrade as tempting as possible for those that have Pentax APS-C cameras and a lot of DA lenses. Speaking for myself, I'd want a Full Frame Pentax to have at the very least 24mp in order to consider an upgrade (otherwise cropped-mode shots would have lower resolution than my K10D gives me).
03-04-2012, 02:32 PM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Please note that I didn't say that "D700 is old technology", I said that the D700 looks old with its low resolution. 12mp is really not much these days. And my main point was that if and when Pentax enters the FF market, they will need much higher resolution than that (combined with some good viewfinder solution) in order to make the upgrade as tempting as possible for those that have Pentax APS-C cameras and a lot of DA lenses. Speaking for myself, I'd want a Full Frame Pentax to have at the very least 24mp in order to consider an upgrade (otherwise cropped-mode shots would have lower resolution than my K10D gives me).
To be honest it is not in the amount of pixels, but in the image quality. The D3s wins easy from the K-5. A $3000 camera is not for people who can't make propper pictures (who need a lot of cropping) but for those who know what frame they want.
03-04-2012, 08:57 PM   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Sony is making big margins off of Nikon and will not rock that boat to potentially drive down margins.
You keep telling that story again and again.

The story is based on the assumption that Nikon can put pressure on Sony by saying, "If you don't play by our rules, we are going to buy our sensors from ...". Now you finish that sentence, please. Do you really think Nikon could put Samsung sensors into their cameras?

I don't believe for a second that Nikon dictates anything. The fact that the K-5 uses the same sensor as the D7000 is just one counter example to your theory.

I don't believe the "Nikon designed this and that" ideas that Nikon and respective evangelists like to spread either. Show me one Nikon patent related to sensor design. The A/D technology that makes current Sony sensors rock is a Sony invention.
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