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06-03-2012, 10:35 AM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
@tjk911

. . .

If Pentax were to go FF, it would make all their current lenses irrelevant. If FF was their intended path then all their new lenses would be FF to start with.

With digital sensors film formats are a bit irrelevant.
There has been discussion about this over the years, on most will agree with you. However, there isn't anything wrong with going with a larger than aps-c format. May as well get it as close to the 135 as possible. That way it keeps a standard. Lastly, not all the Pentax current lenses would be irrelevant and many recent Legacy lenses could be revised and brought back as well as a couple of the better classics (A 15/k15, K 28/2 and A 50/1.2 for example)

QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
The APS-C or M4/3 already out preforms 35mm film. Has truer color then 35mm film and allows camera makers to build all kinds of small cool cameras. Small 35mm cameras are something Pentax and Olympus both pride them selves in.
I don't completely agree with this statement regaridng m4/3. Snaps shots you are correct. However, someone with professional quality film and good gear can do some very very good work with film. I do some crappy work with m/43 because the lack of an optical viewfinder and bright sun on the lcd.


QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
I hear statements that Pentax is not credible because they don''t have FF? Come on.. Look at the 645D reviews on this site.
Yes, I said that Pentax has a credibility issue and a visibility one because of the lack of a full frame sensor. I stand by the comment. I don't feel that way. However, if you don't think that is the perception of many people looking at the Canon, Nikon and Sony line (or Leica), then there is really no point of debating this with you. What does a $10,000 medium format body have to do with the full frame argument? Nada. That's what. It is a different format. The 645D fits a niche and there is nothing wrong with that. However, 135 bodies and the 67/645 bodies were in a different niche during the film era which was still swinging 10 years ago.

06-03-2012, 11:26 AM   #542
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Hi,
I may have miss spoke about 4/3 regarding film. I actually shoot 35mm film as well as all the other formats and enjoy doing so.

Granted... it is possible that Pentax could go FF if FF becomes very reasonable and does not undercut their MF sales or affect their other offerings but I believe the market would have to go through some changes for this to happen.
I actually own just about every K and M, 6x7 lens out there plus many of the M42 lenses. Love them. If it makes sense for Pentax to go FF I am sure they will do it but don't hold your breath.

I will have to agree to disagree with you on the credibility issue. $10,000++ is what you will have to spend if you want the PRO level gear from Pentax. Less money if you go with (If you include their prime lenses the price might get competive) Canon or Nikon Pro gear but the 645D is far superior in many ways. I would probably rent this camera before I would even consider buying it. It does lack one feature (anti shake) that I would expect for that price.
06-03-2012, 11:42 AM   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
Hi,
I may have miss spoke about 4/3 regarding film. I actually shoot 35mm film as well as all the other formats and enjoy doing so.

Granted... it is possible that Pentax could go FF if FF becomes very reasonable and does not undercut their MF sales or affect their other offerings but I believe the market would have to go through some changes for this to happen.
I actually own just about every K and M, 6x7 lens out there plus many of the M42 lenses. Love them. If it makes sense for Pentax to go FF I am sure they will do it but don't hold your breath.

I will have to agree to disagree with you on the credibility issue. $10,000++ is what you will have to spend if you want the PRO level gear from Pentax. Less money if you go with (If you include their prime lenses the price might get competive) Canon or Nikon Pro gear but the 645D is far superior in many ways. I would probably rent this camera before I would even consider buying it. It does lack one feature (anti shake) that I would expect for that price.
Therein lies the problem. That is MF pro gear. The average Canon/Nikon person I mentioned generally don't know about MF, and if they did, the size alone would probably shake them up. And the point I was making is that Canon and Nikon aren't competing in the MF format. Therefore, MF is not part of the full frame debate.

Edit: Or to put it another way, full frame should be more usable for action/sports and macro for my situation. Plus, the 645D is out of my range.

Last edited by Blue; 06-03-2012 at 11:58 AM.
06-03-2012, 12:05 PM   #544
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Sorry but I only see your point if I live in the 35mm format bubble - which many people understandably do. A digital sensor can be any shape or size so format is really dictated by the lenses not so much by old film formats. Pentax has always done MF as their pro market.
There are tons of 645 and 6x7 lenses out there. Many pro's used this gear. I myself have much of this gear and was worried that there would be no upgrade path. I can rent the body if I so choose and wallah, instant pro camera. 35mm for Pentax has always been for their prosumer and student market.

" the point I was making is that Canon and Nikon aren't competing in the MF format"

This is true but Pentax is competing in the Pro market as is Canon/Nikon/Sony... It is Flag ship camera against Flagship camera. Not one format against another.
Pentax 645D Review vs. Nikon D3x - Introduction - PentaxForums.com

This is even more to the point
https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-645d-review-nikon-d3x/conclusion.html#WhoFor


Last edited by mikeossur; 06-03-2012 at 12:14 PM.
06-03-2012, 12:33 PM   #545
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
Sorry but I only see your point if I live in the 35mm format bubble - which many people understandably do. A digital sensor can be any shape or size so format is really dictated by the lenses not so much by old film formats. Pentax has always done MF as their pro market.
Many others are talking about FF and you seem to be translating that as talking about pro market. Not the same.
06-03-2012, 12:39 PM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
Sorry but I only see your point if I live in the 35mm format bubble - which many people understandably do. A digital sensor can be any shape or size so format is really dictated by the lenses not so much by old film formats. Pentax has always done MF as their pro market.
There are tons of 645 and 6x7 lenses out there. Many pro's used this gear. I myself have much of this gear and was worried that there would be no upgrade path. I can rent the body if I so choose and wallah, instant pro camera. 35mm for Pentax has always been for their prosumer and student market.

" the point I was making is that Canon and Nikon aren't competing in the MF format"

This is true but Pentax is competing in the Pro market as is Canon/Nikon/Sony... It is Flag ship camera against Flagship camera. Not one format against another.
Pentax 645D Review vs. Nikon D3x - Introduction - PentaxForums.com

This is even more to the point
Pentax 645D Review vs. Nikon D3x - Conclusion - PentaxForums.com

Look, I own 4 6x7 lenses and they are far more ginormous than needed for a full frame body. Furthermore how many 645 and 67 lenses are out there is a moot point to a full frame body. Plus, only a few of the 645 lenses are af. However, if people start using weird sensor sizes, you will endup with more of a cluster-flop than we currently have with aps-c and 4/3. There are 2 or 3 size variations in use with aps-c plus the 4/3. That has an impact on the old medium format lens that you talk about. Medium format sucks doing nature and format regarding subjects that don't stay still very long.

That said, MF even with manual focus lenses and film can be used in action shots like this 30 year old shot out of my collection. However, I would have been using a LX if I had one at the time. However, that was a little out of the price range of the average high school student.

What is your point about the 645D review? So what, if you can use 67 lenses on it? It is still a different format with a different use and it is still a $10,000 body. It is more of a concern to digital Mamiya and Hasselblad users than me.
06-03-2012, 01:26 PM   #547
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Well Blue...what is your point? You seem to me rambling and taking what I said a little out of context. aps-c is pretty much the standard that Pentax is using. If you are looking for FF 35mm, you can always buy a Nikon or Cannon. Nikon camera is just short of 8 grand. I don't see that as being that much cheaper then the 645D. How much are you willing to spend for FF and the required lenses to take full advantage of it?
06-03-2012, 01:49 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
Well Blue...what is your point? You seem to me rambling and taking what I said a little out of context. aps-c is pretty much the standard that Pentax is using. If you are looking for FF 35mm, you can always buy a Nikon or Cannon. Nikon camera is just short of 8 grand. I don't see that as being that much cheaper then the 645D. How much are you willing to spend for FF and the required lenses to take full advantage of it?
Actually, you are the one that has been babbling and rambling about medium format and aps-c when this is a full frame discussion. You have even rambled into m4/3 and 4/3. The last sentence is moot since Pentax hasn't built one. However, I have considered the D700 and 5d so your last question is also irrelevant to the discussion in this thread. The point of that discussion is to be able to use our Pentax glass. The D700 people can use their Nikon Glass. However, for some inexplicable reason, you seem to think Pentax should just abandon everything inbetween aps-c and their cropped 645D medium format. I think its good that Pentax has the 645D. It isn't pertinent to me. I am done with debating it with you so move on. Hand

Edit: I will simplify for you. This is a ff thread, not a mf thead. Pentax has a mf line.

06-03-2012, 02:05 PM   #549
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Sorry to burst your FF bubble.
06-03-2012, 02:10 PM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by donaldchalfy Quote
To TJK911, Your comments are well said.

A point to ponder: How many people on this thread realize the quantum leap in price increase the consumer will incur for all the R&D, complete redesign of the camera itself, building lenses to accommodate that sort of sensor? Because if one thinks that the great Pentax legacy glass from the film days will work on a new FF sensor and give great results, one is sorely mistaken. Now, take into account the new experimentation regarding having or excluding a low pass filter, it takes it to a new level of design issues.

Here is the question: Is one able and willing to pay a substantial increase in price (prices on par with Canon's 5D MK III, Nikon's D800, and the appropriate glass to make it work to its fullest potential) for such a leap in technology in Pentax's line up of cameras, and is it fiscally sound for Pentax to take such a leap of faith in the hopes that it will be a hit for the Pentax market?

I look forward to what people have to say.
Yeah that's a very relevant question that I hear being echoed in the forums often: Will people actually be willing to purchase/pay for a $3,000 to $4,000 fullframe and $1,000+ per lens?

Personally, I'm setting aside some money every month and if plans go well, in about a year or so I'll be able to get a D800 with a 24-70 and 70-200. This was money originally meant for the FA triplets, but after some careful thinking, the lack of an FF future outweighed things for me.

There's just a very distinctive IQ difference between APS-C and FF, and while for many average shooters it doesn't matter all that much, I can't exactly compete/compare with the other photojournalists I know that shoot with 1Ds and all. At first I didn't mind the slight APS-C handicap, but after shooting alongside FF shooters for a year or so...

FF won't be the savior that will immediately bring Pentax/Ricoh up into the limelight again, but it will stop the hemorrhaging that Pentax is going through though.
06-03-2012, 02:17 PM   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
@tjk911

The APS-C or M4/3 already out preforms 35mm film. Has truer color then 35mm film and allows camera makers to build all kinds of small cool cameras. Small 35mm cameras are something Pentax and Olympus both pride them selves in.
We're talking about fullframe digital sensors, not 35mm film. And one really simple example of how the APS-C or M4/3 ISN'T outperforming FF sensors is depth of field. A 70-200 f2.8 on APS-C and FF have different depth of fields, even after cropped to ensure same focal length comparisons.

Once again, yes, the MF would have an advantage over FF and no one is disagreeing with that, but this isn't a "How to push the Pentax 645D Mk2" thread.
06-03-2012, 02:41 PM   #552
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If Pentax can make a FF body for under 2000 I will be the first in line. I tend to believe Pentax only cares about the prosumer at the moment. I remember when they only offered the *stDS. They have come a long way but if you need a FF right now, Pentax is not the answer. If you can wait 3 or 5 years down the road it might all change..or not. Pentax seems to have a bit of a old school mind set when it comes to the Pro market.
06-03-2012, 02:48 PM   #553
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Haha I find it amusing how you define "Pro" market and the prosumer market.

Oh, to imagine sports photographers all lugging two large Phase Ones, Leica S2s or even the 645D... Lol. That'd be quite the scene.
06-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeossur Quote
Sorry to burst your FF bubble.

Troll
06-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #555
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"Oh, to imagine sports photographers all lugging two large Phase Ones, Leica S2s or even the 645D... Lol. That'd be quite the scene."

No.. I think they would use a Canon or Nikon. Not a K-5 or K20D

I would use a 645D what it is intended for. Not sport photography.

Last edited by mikeossur; 06-03-2012 at 03:16 PM.
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