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01-20-2012, 02:19 PM   #46
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mattdm and Peter Zack, both highly-regarded members, have expressed reservations (indeed, outright objections) to this line of action. I can't say I necessarily am not guilty of supporting something I won't buy, nor do I perfectly understand the economics of the FF capital investment versus return potential for Ricoh/Pentax.

I do believe that the K-7 employed technologies developed for the 645D (not the other way around), the costs of which were amortized over a significantly larger number of units. I do believe the rumored K-01 will exploit technology developed for the K-5 AND K-7, thus further recovering those costs.

My sense is, while a competitive professional-grade FF system isn't possible for Pentax to do, costs developing the non-sensor technologioes for a Pentax FF niche camera could be spread over the entire APSc dSLR line.

My sense is Ricoh has a significant capital and cash flow base Pentax never had and Hoya was never willing to commit - if Ricoh chose to deploy some of it to growing Pentax.

And my sense is, were there a viable FF camera from Pentax I might just act on this idea I've had knocking around that I should sell everything, buy one K-mount camera and the three FA Limiteds (new ones) and just shoot with them. I've never been able to make myself do that, even for a K-5, but I might for FF.

01-20-2012, 02:19 PM   #47
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If you like does that also mean that you need to buy one?
That should only be fair right.

I mean if you're asking for something and then you should also use it or are we that spoiled?
01-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #48
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I love my K- 5, I feel it is the ultimate camera for me. For FF I have a couple of light and inexpensive film cameras, and every new frame is a new sensor.

It's extremely inadequate to create a product that everyone makes already, and childish to hope you'll make profit with it.
Why do it? Just for the bragging rights of a few?
We have a proverb that goes like this:
Rather be respected man in your own village than a beggar at the city. How many DA lenses for 645d has Pentax released so far?
01-20-2012, 02:20 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I don't think you're disloyal at all. I'm just objecting to the idea that "all true Pentaxians want full frame".
I don't recall anyone writing that ^^.

While I can see how FF may not interest some, I wonder why anyone would want to vocally campaign against it. A FF initiative by Ricoh would enrich all of K-mount, not just folks who buy FF bodies.


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01-20-2012, 02:40 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by kswier Quote
Since many of the people who would buy a Pentax full frame are those with old Pentax lenses, they could make the body a limited edition type deal. I believe this strategy would allow them to cater to those who have Pentax equipment and want a full frame body (Decently few people), while avoiding a large investment in lenses.
Nice thinking, but the question is: what is in it for Pentax? I mean people who have fullframe lenses, already have bought themselves Pentax cameras to utilize them. I'm not so convinced that Pentax will grant us fullframe without opportunity to sell us expensive set of proffessional lenses - it just doesn't make sense from the point of view of company which makes its living by selling the optics.....but it would be nice, anyway
01-20-2012, 03:37 PM - 1 Like   #51
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With the Ricoh acquisition, Pentax has got to be at some sort of a transition point, right? They're wrapping up the hoya-funded models (kr, k5, k-01, whatever replaces the K5/Kr) and then Ricoh will come on board. And, to be quite honest, nobody knows what they are thinking- for all we know, they could be funding a more complete product lineup as we speak!

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01-20-2012, 04:13 PM   #52
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I would like to buy a FF Pentax camera that can do at least all the things that my K-5's can do. I want it for sportsphotography, so at least one longer lens would be great to go with that camera.

Lens wishes:
  • D-FA* 85mm/f1.4
  • D-FA* 135mm/f2.0
  • D-FA* 135-270mm/f2.8
  • D-FA* 300mm/f2.8
  • D-FA* 400mm/f4.0 (or f4.5)
  • DA* 1,4x TC

I would like to have to have a long and fast lens, for wich a few options are possible. A long zoom or 300mm combined with a TC can do the same job as a fast 400mm. I need at least one of these options.
01-20-2012, 06:43 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I don't recall anyone writing that ^^.

While I can see how FF may not interest some, I wonder why anyone would want to vocally campaign against it. A FF initiative by Ricoh would enrich all of K-mount, not just folks who buy FF bodies.
Canon and Nikon make entry-level lenses for APS-C, and nice lenses for full frame. Only Pentax makes Limited-quality lenses for APS-C.

I'm also concerned about the temptation to arbitrarily limit software or easily-implementable features in order to drive people to the higher models. Canon and Nikon do this pretty shamelessly with their entry-level models, and even Pentax does it with things like AF micro-adjust. I'd really rather them focus on the mid/high-tier enthusiast range. In short, if they go full frame, I doubt they'll ever make an APS-C camera as nice as the K-5 again.

The 645D is in a whole separate category, so it doesn't really have this problem, even though it shares engineering and R&D.

01-21-2012, 08:22 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
The problem is: those bells and whistles don't add much at all to the cost, and so stripping them out isn't going to get the cost down. Not having a Tv mode saves nothing. Low quality control, cheap materials, cheap manufacture — now that brings the cost down.
OK. Then, let me take this to another direction.

How about FF sensor in what looks like a 645D body, except much smaller, with K mount? I realize that it is not as simple as shrinking it. Again, I want this to be cheap. Say, around $2,000.

I say this because there are only few ways, I believe, to get the attention of novices. One is cheaper pricing. Another is very atypical, eye catching design. If it looks cool, they will sell more of it.

How about a FF camera in which a buyer can choose the mount of their choice? Not sure if it is infringement though. Pentax Body with Nikon or Canon or Leica or Sony mount. Some of you will say that Pentax will not make money from FF lens line up. But some of you think that FF will be put out for those with old lenses already in hands. If so, that wouldn't matter then. I realize SR will be a problem though. Come to think of, I am almost certain it is infringement of some kind. You guys probably would know.

Another way to rev up sales of FF body if they came out is to come up with FA limiteds in many different colors. No?

They tend to think outside of the box.
01-21-2012, 08:48 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
How about FF sensor in what looks like a 645D body, except much smaller, with K mount? I realize that it is not as simple as shrinking it. Again, I want this to be cheap. Say, around $2,000.
An interesting idea, but I don't think it will work. I've held the 645D. It's big. Really big, as in you just wont believe how big this camera is. I'm not sure they'd be saving any R&D here.. Oh and no SR in that body.
01-21-2012, 08:58 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
An interesting idea, but I don't think it will work. I've held the 645D. It's big. Really big, as in you just wont believe how big this camera is. I'm not sure they'd be saving any R&D here.. Oh and no SR in that body.
Yes it is big, and rather heavy one at that. But there is a dude here that says he uses it for street photography all the time (lol). To this guy's credit though, the handling of it really is not that bad. I use it handheld a whole lot more than mount it in a tripod.

If made smaller and lighter, it can work, and most importantly it will look very cool. The looks is I think the most important aspect of a camera.
01-21-2012, 05:40 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I would like to buy a FF Pentax camera that can do at least all the things that my K-5's can do. I want it for sportsphotography, so at least one longer lens would be great to go with that camera.

Lens wishes:
  • D-FA* 85mm/f1.4
  • D-FA* 135mm/f2.0
  • D-FA* 135-270mm/f2.8
  • D-FA* 300mm/f2.8
  • D-FA* 400mm/f4.0 (or f4.5)
  • DA* 1,4x TC

I would like to have to have a long and fast lens, for wich a few options are possible. A long zoom or 300mm combined with a TC can do the same job as a fast 400mm. I need at least one of these options.
I kinda like your wish list except the 400 f/4 is just wrong.---but there is no 'right' 400. You really need an f/2.8 lens to be really happy with a TC.
An f2.8 400 is overweight (6 kilos) and expensive. an F4 is iffy with a TC but if you don't use one its shorter than a 300 f/2.8 with a TC

Historically pentax has made the f/2.8 400 and an f5.6 400 which I think are 'right'. the f4 is a compromise that compares badly to the 300 f2,8
however you try to use it.
01-21-2012, 06:15 PM   #58
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I think there are a few different ways that Pentax/Ricoh could go to avoid getting swamped in this competitive camera field.
  1. Add full frame to what they already have. Focus on building lenses for Q, FF K-mount, and 645D. APS-C users can buy the new lenses and flashes made for the full frame system.
  2. Come out with a new mount (micro K?) that allows for a smaller mirrorless camera. Focus on building lenses for Q, micro K-mount, APS-C and 645D
  3. Commit to a K-5 size body (mirrorless or not), and to completely refreshing SDM and the rest of the lens line up (DA* at the very least), plus flashes. Focus on building lenses for Q, APS-C and 645D

Plus, add the GXR mount to any of those options, as that's Ricoh's main baby.

Of these, I think one and three make the most sense or a combo of both, and as a current Pentax user either would be the most desirable to me. #2 is the way Sony, Olympus, Nikon and Fuji seem to be pushing. If Pentax went this way, this new camera system would compete with both the Pentax Q and the Ricoh GXR, two of their own products, so at the very least Pricoh would have to scrap the Q or GXR projects right? I don't get any indication from what they've said that they are prepared to do that.

All of three would take several years to complete and a significant investment from Ricoh. Pricoh is going to have to be bold in order to survive. So I say is full frame risky? Sure.

But so is doing nothing.
01-22-2012, 06:38 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
I'm just objecting to the idea that "all true Pentaxians want full frame".
I hope you're right.

As otherwise, this year's CP+ where Nikon launches the 36MP D800 and Pentax remains tight-lipped on FF as always would make Pentaxians an endangered species
01-22-2012, 07:18 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I hope you're right.

As otherwise, this year's CP+ where Nikon launches the 36MP D800 and Pentax remains tight-lipped on FF as always would make Pentaxians an endangered species
Why are they doing 36 MP? I rarely get upset with this kind of stuff, but I was planning on upgrading probably Jan 2013 from the D700. However, I have absolutely no desire to work with 36 MP files. I wonder if they will come out with a model in a similar price point with 12-18 MP. I sure hope so.
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