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06-28-2012, 05:23 PM   #706
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Again, that's not a patent that has any relevance for the sensors we are discussing.
You don't know that.

You would have to disassemble the actual sensor to know which patents apply where.

That's usually done with lawyers in mind:

Image Sensors World: Intellectual Ventures Sues Nikon over Image Sensor Patents

For all we know Sony has banks of Nikon photolithography machines.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Yes, but requesting certain specs is different from engineering the solution.
Uh, no....it is not. I am actually overseeing a project right now where the engineer (building science, I am on the risk management/insurance side) specs are vetted jointly between supplier and customer. Regular meetings. Both have surety bonds.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Someone who produces the best sensor bar none could afford to do that. It's not the case that a sensor has to be custom built for a particular company or camera.

A few cameras benefit from specific solutions, but the vast majority will work with a generic sensor as long as it fits the general bill.
But we're not talking about generic sensors, are we?

We're talking about a relatively tiny market for FF and even larger sensors. The 645D, Leica M9, Hassleblad sensors, all have custom-designed features. The Leica M9 sensor has Leica-designed micro-lenses. Leica had to develop their own in-house capacity to do that as they had zero experience in anything like that and there were no "generic" solutions.

It's like saying a stock car is really a stock car.

In fact, if I were Nikon I wold pay a premium to get my guys in on the design phase so I can ground my people and then shop around for exactly what I want next time, or retain the option to move production in-house (like Apple with ARM chips).

For my flagship stuff there is no way I am going to allow that to come from a generic block of wafer. There goes my $3,000 price point.

Look at Fuji. They make it a point of design and marketing to differentiate their sensors, especially on their X-series equipment. For their consumer line, they buy from Sony or make themselves. I still have my F40fd with the SuperCCD, bought because it was the best low light sensor out there for a compact a the time.

And what about upcoming advances like stacked CMOS and backlighting? Do you think Nikon will just wait for those to come o the open market? Or will they get in at the design phase to make those products work best for their current asset base?

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
But apparently it's the Sony sensor design tricks that make their current sensors so dominant. This relegates Nikon to a customer as opposed to someone sharing IP. A mighty customer, indeed, but due to volume orders not because they own some of the engineering IP.
Sony is dominant because the have the most production capacity. It is more likely not that they independently created pixie dust tech in isolation fro their customers, or worked off of some faxed int spec sheet. More likely Sony's engineers and Nikon's meet regularly about design and quality. Sony says why they can do and Nikon asks them to tweak it to their own parameters. Certain routines will require licenses (Motorola and TI hold bucketfuls for this stuff) or methodologies become time-delimited and in contract. As might as Nikon is as a customer (100% of Sony's FF capacity) I bet Sony only lets them in the door of the foundry with a chequebook.

What's odd about Sony is they seem to not know how to get the best out of their own sensors!

Will Pentax get in? From where I sit, it's all about price. Pentax has too little volume to put out a FF camera body much above $2,000.

06-28-2012, 08:43 PM   #707
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How are the sensor actually delivered by sony, i've the feeling they simply ship the electronics and not more so the filters is something the camera manufacture do.

About Sony FF and Nikon so far as i know Sony don't have FF camera so that means most if not all those sensors are export, the question is does nikon gave them the order to develop them or did sony develop them on their own in order to sell them on the open market, do you actually know what the situation is?
06-29-2012, 01:14 AM   #708
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You don't know that.
If such a non-standard pattern would be in use, we'd know about it. Just as we know about the non-standard pattern of the Fujifilm X-Pro1.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
For all we know Sony has banks of Nikon photolithography machines.
Or not.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
But we're not talking about generic sensors, are we?
A sensor is a sensor is a sensor, for most intents and purposes. Nikon once had an alternative 14-bit readout to a standard 12-bit readout Sony sensor and you could select either method. That's as custom as it gets, AFAIK. Your Leica example is an outlier because of the short rangefinder registration distance.

Normally, you just agree on resolution, power consumption, readout speed, etc., but this doesn't mean that the one who is ordering has to do (part of) the development.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And what about upcoming advances like stacked CMOS and backlighting? Do you think Nikon will just wait for those to come o the open market?
Sony made contributions to backlighting technology, not Nikon.

Again, let's agree to disagree on some things and let's keep all our fingers crossed that Pentax will enter the FF market soon. Pentax remaining a player in the camera market will not only be good for Pentaxians.
06-29-2012, 01:21 AM   #709
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In response to Aristophanes:

Sony don't seem to get the best out of their sensors because they like to stick a horrible pellicle mirror in front of them. Seriously I guess you are right though, because even before 'SLT' Sony still wasn't getting the performance other manufacturers could extract from it's sensors.

On a FF sensor for Pentax, Samsung is still said to be developing an FF sensor. Samsung's application would most likely be in a mirrorless camera, but the same sensor could be used in a Pentax DSLR.

06-29-2012, 05:32 AM   #710
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QuoteOriginally posted by markac Quote
In response to Aristophanes:

Sony don't seem to get the best out of their sensors because they like to stick a horrible pellicle mirror in front of them. Seriously I guess you are right though, because even before 'SLT' Sony still wasn't getting the performance other manufacturers could extract from it's sensors.

On a FF sensor for Pentax, Samsung is still said to be developing an FF sensor. Samsung's application would most likely be in a mirrorless camera, but the same sensor could be used in a Pentax DSLR.
been there done that, unless samsung comes up with a game changer it would be dumb at this point to leave the sony sensor family. they are still the best sensor on the market by far.
06-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #711
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
been there done that, unless samsung comes up with a game changer it would be dumb at this point to leave the sony sensor family. they are still the best sensor on the market by far.
Even Leica is said to be in talks with Sony over the next gen M-series.

The major competitors to Sony are Canon, Fuji and Aptina. Samsung is the oddball. Same for Panasonic. Kodak's sold-off product is headed nowhere. I bet Pentax is working on that for the next gen 645D.

Both Fuji and Canon also buy from Sony. Sony has something like 70% market share now in camera sensors, including smartphones.
06-29-2012, 12:30 PM   #712
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Leica is rumoured to have a CMOS MF sensor coming for the S2 replacement, but for the M10 it is likely this Dalsa sensor which has Microlenses with wide angular response, which really points to a Rangefinder and since Leica is the only game in that part of town...both Colour and Monochrome variants available .

FTF6040C 24 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
FTF6040M 24 MP Mono CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA


You actually missed Dalsa in your list. They provide a large number of the Medium format sensors as well if I'm not mistaken

Even cooler in my view is this one - 36x48 48mp monochrome sensor.....for digital still applications....who is that for . (it also comes in a colour variant So a potential 645D sensor or S2mk2


FTF6080M 48 MP Mono CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
FTF6080C 48 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
06-29-2012, 12:38 PM   #713
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I'll add that this rumour of the dalsa has been debunked on Luminous Landscape.

Even better is this silly rumour that the M10 will use a Sony B?W sensor and because of production limitations at Leica, Ricoh will assemble the camera for them. That has to be the funniest rumour I've read this year

Leica M10 with Sony B&W sensor and Ricoh collaboration? | Mirrorless Rumors

06-29-2012, 12:41 PM   #714
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Leica is rumoured to have a CMOS MF sensor coming for the S2 replacement, but for the M10 it is likely this Dalsa sensor which has Microlenses with wide angular response, which really points to a Rangefinder and since Leica is the only game in that part of town...both Colour and Monochrome variants available .

FTF6040C 24 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
FTF6040M 24 MP Mono CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA


You actually missed Dalsa in your list. They provide a large number of the Medium format sensors as well if I'm not mistaken

Even cooler in my view is this one - 36x48 48mp monochrome sensor.....for digital still applications....who is that for . (it also comes in a colour variant So a potential 645D sensor or S2mk2


FTF6080M 48 MP Mono CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
FTF6080C 48 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA
I feel a full circle, coming back with the same rumor after 4 months:

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Maybe not ideal, but with 24 megapixel and a max of 3.6 fps not to bad in speed. No videofunction, but for that you can make the next APS-C camera better. Canon also doesnt'use the whole sensor for video in 1Dx, but only the APS-H size of the sensor.

wow and we may as well order this: FTF6080C 48 MP Color CCD - Product Detail - Teledyne DALSA sensor for 645D-2 same pixel size as 645D but 20 % larger sensor due to 48 megapixel and faster readout (1.6 fps).

But for both 645D-2 and FF there is a need for fast processing, so put in two of those Milbeaut processors and make it snappy fast in using the max writespeed of UHS-I to use everything that is in those sensors.

Maybe by ordering both sensors from Dalsa the price could be just good.

This is funny:
Teledyne DALSA - Professional Imaging
Sales Department
High Tech Campus 27
5656 AE Eindhoven
The Netherlands
Tel: +31 40 2599009
Fax: +31 40 2599015
Teledyne DALSA Image Sensor Solutions
sales.sensors@teledynedalsa.com


I live about 13 km from this side.
Time to get some new news.
06-29-2012, 12:46 PM   #715
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Yep.you're right

And Dalsa has always had FF sensors they sell into specialty markets , I think they are just trying some creative marketing pushing these as DSLR sensors.
07-05-2012, 11:41 AM   #716
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This is fascinating when Chinese pentax users also longing to FF cameras do nothing but complain.

It is just more than cultural or ecnomic differences.

I should also do something now~
07-10-2012, 12:03 PM   #717
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APS_C sensor works fine for my shooting needs: birding and macro However, I would buy a FF immediately. I will sell my two Kx and - keep the K5.
07-10-2012, 12:09 PM   #718
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I've been thinking if you want a FF and want to get that out faster why not give some money to Ricoh. Surely the more money they have the easier it is for them right. =]
07-10-2012, 12:39 PM   #719
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RICO means RICH in Spanish, maybe RICOH means richer. SO, they may have plenty of money, since they bought Pentax. One thing that I could do is move to Canon, the Mark III ain't too bad at that price. I wonder how much the Pentax FF would sale for.
07-10-2012, 01:19 PM   #720
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Well Pentax isn't that expensive think that Instagram went for 10 times as much....
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