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01-22-2012, 08:21 PM   #76
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BTW- I lived in Boston for many years. I loved it. I use to live in the Fens at Westland and Hemenway. I REALLY miss it. But I have family here in Texas and once they start getting older you have to be close by. Congrats on the Pats!

01-22-2012, 10:00 PM   #77
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I have both 24x36 and APS-C lenses in the house, along with cameras to use both. All the 24x36 bodies are film, and range from a broken Spotmatic F to a perfectly performing MZ-S. I use 2 of my 24x36 lenses on my K10D, as a few on this forum know. If I ever want to work in the slightly wide to moderate telephoto range on the K10, my wife will have to spring the FA 24-90 for a while. It's not a bad lens, and is 24x36 compatible. (I have a bad one, too - the FA 28-80, with the required sticky tape holding the power zoom bits in place on the grounds that they plug the holes and prevent further damage.) My son has taken over the well used, but still functional, Ricohflex 6x6 twin lens reflex. A bit confusing for sports with the left to right reversed finder, but superb for portrait work and scenic shots.

I voted for the FF thread. I like cameras with HEFT (Heavy Extra Fine Tools for photographers). The SF-1 is a favourite of mine, particularly with the absolutely perfect location of the hot shoe. It weighed a ton but could be used hand held with the AF 500 FTZ mounted. Try that with top of prism mounts some time. The MZ-S is a great camera, and my wife agrees. The SF-1 has a brand new battery in it right now ...
01-22-2012, 11:37 PM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
You can set the resolution in-camera, but why would you buy a 36mp camera to print such 'small' sizes? Why choose a FF DSLR at all, unless you're a DOF craver!
While I don't know what it might have over the D700 he apparently already has I'm sure it's not just resolution. But there are (at least) two unrelated reasons to use a camera.

One is for taking pictures. Some people seem to have an almost religious conviction that you aren't allowed to care about anything but the pictures. But some poeple (like me) use a camera because they enjoy it. There may be pictures, but that's often secondary. I use my 645 a lot more than you'd think looking at how many pictures I take with it, because the finder is wonderful. Buying an FF DSLR doesn't get you that much finder, but it's better than APS-C, and a perfectly valid reason for wanting one.
01-23-2012, 01:05 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
Peter, you want to create a counter-petition? I'm in.
That's ridiculous in the extreme ... it should go without saying that the majority of people who don't sign up to the petition wouldn't buy it.

Reality is a good proportion of those who do sign the petition won't buy it, some of those who don't will, and there will be some who will switch from other brands for one reason or another (like the opportunity to use the FA Ltds on their native mount) to say nothing of enticing shooters into the lower priced models who now know that a full upgrade path is there if they need it .... without having to switch to a D700, 5D MkII, 900 or their latest incarnations.

With the cost of producing cameras coming down all the time (especially sensors), and the improvements in technology and miniaturisation, there may be a time when a smaller production run can still be viable investment, whether that's here and now I couldn't say but no doubt someone has the maths on that. It's not all about the camera as even if a FF camera breaks even, or suffers a minor negative ROI, it will still generate a lot more sales of FF capable lenses and inspire Sigma & Tamron to produce their lenses in PK mount, making Pentax a more attractive proposition to togs looking for a brand to buy into. Recent comments from Pentax in the UK seem to suggest that long lens(es) are on the way and there is a substantial list of Pentax lenses that are FF capable now - I forget who published that thread - to say nothing of having a mode similar to the D700 with a DX mode that allows the use of APS-C only lenses on a FF sensor. And imagine the new lease of life the viewfinder on a FF Pentax would give to MF lenses !

There are many unseen benefits to having a full line-up that includes a FF camera if the R&D investment can be shown to be viable.


Last edited by Frogfish; 01-23-2012 at 01:10 AM.
01-23-2012, 01:35 AM   #80
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Thanks for that link ... that alone (and it's ridiculous price) could be enough to put me off the X-Pro 1 (though the X100 is still on the list)
01-23-2012, 08:59 AM   #81
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Problem is that pentax is very late with FF so i doubt it's a viable option.
All the people that "need" FF have already switch to Canon or Nikon, so that leaves the few Pentaxian sitting on a big amount of FA (ect.) lenses or "newbies" that go to FF.
Most Pentaxian have already adopted their lens line to work with APS-C but if you go FF you start over again, and everyone that stated out with a Pentax DSLR most likely will only have DA lenses...
So how large is the potential market that might get a FF when it's launched?


They might as well launch something completely new like a mirrorless FF and attract some folks from other brands maybe with it...
01-23-2012, 09:45 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Problem is that pentax is very late with FF so i doubt it's a viable option.
All the people that "need" FF have already switch to Canon or Nikon, so that leaves the few Pentaxian sitting on a big amount of FA (ect.) lenses or "newbies" that go to FF.

Most Pentaxian have already adopted their lens line to work with APS-C but if you go FF you start over again, and everyone that stated out with a Pentax DSLR most likely will only have DA lenses...
So how large is the potential market that might get a FF when it's launched?
Well regarding the first point that doesn't make any sense whatsoever because the loss of users to a FF camera is linear, more like a production line than a battleground charge ! There were more new users to Pentax over the production run of the Kx and Kr than ever before as the number of DSLR users worldwide has exploded, and those users will need a couple of years or so to grow through the system.

DA lenses can also work with a Pentax FF camera just as Nikon's DX lenses can work with the D700 in DX mode and as has been shown many of them will work just fine on FF anyway.
01-23-2012, 09:51 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Well regarding the first point that doesn't make any sense whatsoever because the loss of users to a FF camera is linear, more like a production line than a battleground charge ! There were more new users to Pentax over the production run of the Kx and Kr than ever before as the number of DSLR users worldwide has exploded, and those users will need a couple of years or so to grow through the system.
Exactly.

QuoteQuote:
DA lenses can also work with a Pentax FF camera just as Nikon's DX lenses can work with the D700 in DX mode and as has been shown many of them will work just fine on FF anyway.
Yes.

01-23-2012, 10:46 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Problem is that pentax is very late with FF so i doubt it's a viable option.
All the people that "need" FF have already switch to Canon or Nikon, so that leaves the few Pentaxian sitting on a big amount of FA (ect.) lenses or "newbies" that go to FF.
Most Pentaxian have already adopted their lens line to work with APS-C but if you go FF you start over again, and everyone that stated out with a Pentax DSLR most likely will only have DA lenses...
So how large is the potential market that might get a FF when it's launched?


They might as well launch something completely new like a mirrorless FF and attract some folks from other brands maybe with it...
All the people assumes that no-one is going to enter the field and that the D800 and all the other new FF on the way will show sales declines as everyone who needs one has one.
And of course no-one ever gets the itch to try a new brand or a camera that offers something theirs doesn't (for Pentax that could be the small FF with great WR and excellent primes -think of the current FA and some old ones brought back as DFA* they would tempt not only Ff users but apsc users as well)
I'm also pretty certain there are a lot of people with FF lenses (except for 2 all of my 18 lenses are Ff, not all are great though. That being said my next 3 lenses on my personal roadmap are the FA LTDs which make a FF even more appealing
01-23-2012, 12:42 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
All the people that "need" FF have already switch to Canon or Nikon
That's not true. But the loss of Pentaxians to the FF camp is indeed worrysome.

My guess is that the trend accelerates with the D800. E.g., a fellow Pentaxian "upgraded" from K-7 to D7000 last year to have more options (keeping the K-7). But now, he decided to preorder the D800 and sold the K-7 and all Pentax glass. Interestingly, he is #15 on the waiting list for the D800 now. To be clear: in one particular retail store and for a product which is rumor only and can't be preordered. At least not officially...

I am seeing the plot thickening... APSC dSLRs will disappear like FourThird dSLRs already did. Pentax has to take notice. Really. Or they become market leaders in a market which no longer exists. No question, Canikon will sell APSC as long as possible. But as long as possible won't be long enough against NEX & Co.
01-23-2012, 01:52 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's not true. But the loss of Pentaxians to the FF camp is indeed worrysome.

My guess is that the trend accelerates with the D800. E.g., a fellow Pentaxian "upgraded" from K-7 to D7000 last year to have more options (keeping the K-7). But now, he decided to preorder the D800 and sold the K-7 and all Pentax glass. Interestingly, he is #15 on the waiting list for the D800 now. To be clear: in one particular retail store and for a product which is rumor only and can't be preordered. At least not officially...

I am seeing the plot thickening... APSC dSLRs will disappear like FourThird dSLRs already did. Pentax has to take notice. Really. Or they become market leaders in a market which no longer exists. No question, Canikon will sell APSC as long as possible. But as long as possible won't be long enough against NEX & Co.
.


I'm glad I'm not the only one worrying about that ^^ anymore

.
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999:

One of my worries is this - what would Ricoh's incentive be to invest a lot in a tier that's being entered by an invasive technology (mirrorless) being delivered by increasingly aggressive and competent players (Fuji, Samsung, Panasonic, even Oly.)

A Pentax DSLR doesn't have the big three to compete against, they have the big three plus everyone else who can make a DSLR, SLT or mirrorless camera and a set of lenses.

If Ricoh tries to enter mirrorless in a big way, they may find that retaining K-mount is a drawback, because it keeps their kits large and unwieldy compared to the other mirrorless players. Thus, they drop the K-mount idea for their new mirrorless bodies.

While this is happening, sensor costs decrease and wafer yields increase, making the $1500 sweet spot margin-freindly for a FF body - thus squeezing aps-c DSLR from the top, also.

The truly size-conscious folks are buying these new mirrorless bodies with advanced EVFs and blazing-fast on-sensor PDAF. At some point, Pentax's 5% of a shrinking aps-c DSLR market starts looking anemic to Ricoh. And if they have no FF K-mount sales, because they chose not to go that route back in 2012... Maybe goodbye, K-mount.
01-23-2012, 02:04 PM   #87
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I am hoping that my next camera will be a Pentax Full Frame. Presently I have a K10D and a K5 and I have been ensuring that much of my glass will work on both APSC as well as full frame. While I won't be in a position to purchase a Full Frame in the next year., that won't be the case in 24 months. Hopefully by then we will see a Full Frame Pentax in the lineup.
01-23-2012, 02:19 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
My guess is that the trend accelerates with the D800. E.g., a fellow Pentaxian "upgraded" from K-7 to D7000 last year to have more options (keeping the K-7). But now, he decided to preorder the D800 and sold the K-7 and all Pentax glass. Interestingly, he is #15 on the waiting list for the D800 now.
I think its more or less accurate story about at least 1/3 of us.... i will not upgrade to d8oo but definitaly buy d3s to accompany my d700 however the things will change in my case if pentax release FF (it'll change in a fashion: there wont be d3s....) am waiting quietly.... sold almost every da glass (14 and 50-135 left) buying afs85f1.4g.... and sb900 i think its story about many of us - we dont hear somethink like that often because the people who left pentax community did this in quiet way.... 5-6 years depending of learning intensity and engagement into photography everyone hits the FF ground at the end..... this is really sad thing that its not pentax FF ground...
01-23-2012, 02:35 PM   #89
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Why would APS-C DSLRs disappear?
4/3 is not a good example, as it was in fact "killed" by... the APS-C DSLRs! m4/3 appeared because Olympus couldn't fight on the DSLR arena; the fight was already decided at that time.
01-23-2012, 03:20 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Why would APS-C DSLRs disappear?
4/3 is not a good example, as it was in fact "killed" by... the APS-C DSLRs!
Why are you asking the question if you give the answer yourself?

Seriously, SLR will survive, but based on their strentgths, not weakness, i.e., optical viewfinder, phase AF speed and accuracy, overall speed, and stunning image quality. All of that means FF.

APSC will survive, but based on their strentgths, not weakness, i.e., compactness, mass producability, video capability (ead EVF). All of that means mirrorless.

Which will make APS-C dSLRs join their 4/3 dSLR fellows.

And Pentax can't determine the moment in time when this happens. Canikon does. So, not joining both the mirrorless AND FF camps now is a game only unreasonable management can play, risking to loose the entire company. Because the moment when it happens, they wouldn't have enough time left to react.

Last edited by falconeye; 01-23-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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