[Medium FormatPro]

@Anvh "... but how many of those will switch to a different brand?..." Many friends are already switched (Canon & Nikon). For me same history, i think's going to Nikon, the D600 Is wonderfull for me, many dynamics (More 14 Ev), very good Snr (Better than k5), good viewfinder

It's almost time for a last stand with Pentax. There are presently three other companies now working on their versions of fullframe. They'll be released in not much more than thirteen months from now. Add to that companies such as Sigma - also working on a fullframe. Whereas no positive verification from Pentax - almost deafing silence.

Then there are the results based on existing facts... I'll agree with the quoted content... There are quite the number of Nikon bodies out there which Pentax is incapable of touching. Clearly better signal to noise, better images in general, significantly better optics & flash options, etc...

[Anvh]

Pentax can maybe compete with high-end and maybe mid-end FF with the 645 format.

[Anvh]

There are quite the number of Nikon bodies out there which Pentax is incapable of touching. Clearly better signal to noise, better images in general, significantly better optics & flash options, etc...

It's not the camera that i'm worried about, i'm sure Pentax can put a very nice camera in the market for a great price but the problem is the rest.
Lenses is a problem, sure Pentax could bring back their FA lenses in a new design for example, if they could or would do that then that might be great but they need to deliver a complete system from the start.
You can not compete with Nikon or Canon who have over 20 lenses when Pentax would come out with maybe 2 or 3... no one in their right mind will put $4000~5000 in a system when the future is unclear and/or not the right lenses are available (yet).
There are some sigma lenses that would work on Pentax FF but... to make a camera and then lean on third party for the lenses is not the idea i think.

[mecrox]

It's not the camera that i'm worried about, i'm sure Pentax can put a very nice camera in the market for a great price but the problem is the rest.
Lenses is a problem, sure Pentax could bring back their FA lenses in a new design for example, if they could or would do that then that might be great but they need to deliver a complete system from the start.
You can not compete with Nikon or Canon who have over 20 lenses when Pentax would come out with maybe 2 or 3... no one in their right mind will put $4000~5000 in a system when the future is unclear and/or not the right lenses are available (yet).
There are some sigma lenses that would work on Pentax FF but... to make a camera and then lean on third party for the lenses is not the idea i think.

"no one in their right mind will put $4000~5000 in a system when the future is unclear" -- this is indeed the problem with Pentax and it has been ever since I bought a Km back in 2008. In those four years I haven't seen a single statement from them, in English, that offers a direct and unambiguous future path. They seem to lurch from one model to the next in near silence and you're never quite sure whether the last model will be, well, the last. Meanwhile, folks try to decipher cryptic comments directed entirely at the English-speaking world but still made in Japanese, and sometimes first translated into Russian or some other language and then run through Google into English. The results are usually hard to make sense of and often don't make any sense at all. In any other industry, this level of PR would be considered catastrophic. Hardened marketing men would be running for the fall-out shelters. What does surprise me is that one year or more in and Ricoh still don't seem to have got a grip on how Pentax communicates with the world outside of Tokyo. I know that people keep mentioning Ricoh in connection with big money and big plans but Ricoh seem to have a very, very strange way of going about convincing world +dog they have either unless you live in Japan. Have they left it all too late? Yes, I think so, at least I think that Pentax are going to lose a very big slice of their top-end users in North America and Europe, the ones who buy all the lenses and the K5 models. They are going to decamp en masse over the next 12 months, not necessarily to FF but to systems where the future is clear enough to make them feel OK about putting in the money and where the distributors are not so crazy as to invite users to leave by inflicting wild lens price fluctuations on them.

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Last edited by mecrox; 10-26-2012 at 04:58 PM.

[Medium FormatPro]

Pentax could bring back their FA lenses in a new design for example, if they could or would do that then that might be great but they need to deliver a complete system from the start

But look at what Fuji has done. They have a non slr camera body that costs/costed over 1k and then also did not have much in the way of lens' to go along with it. This is still the case with Fuji. But it seems to be selling quite well.

Pentax does have the ability to do it, both (even) now and also has had the chance in the past - but has failed to step up to the plate.

[maxfield_photo]

I think the problem, Mecrox, is that Pentax has always taken a very Nippo-centric view of their market. Will it do well in Japan? As a result we have things like the K-01 and the Q, and Hello Kitty K-5s. And I don't know, maybe that IS their biggest market, but perhaps it's their biggest market only because they've ignored opportunities to expand into foreign markets, or haven't taken the time to understand them. Then Ricoh came along, bought up Pentax, and promptly handed the operation of their own camera business over to them, and so we get more of the same. I'm not sure they've ever made comments directed at their users overseas save for when they've been forcibly extracted like a dentist pulling teeth.

[Anvh]

But look at what Fuji has done. They have a non slr camera body that costs/costed over 1k and then also did not have much in the way of lens' to go along with it. This is still the case with Fuji. But it seems to be selling quite well.

That was for a new upcoming market which wasn't yet so defined as the FF market is now.
In a way Fuji brought out a camera in time for a market to get a share, also their cameras are often seen as camera to have on the side rather than the main camera.
So different market different purpose camera, not a work horse.

Pentax can come with something completely new for the FF market but they won't competing directly then with Canon and Nikon and i doubt we are talking about such a camera here.
The users here want something like that 5D mkII of D800.

[Anvh]

I think the problem, Mecrox, is that Pentax has always taken a very Nippo-centric view of their market. Will it do well in Japan? As a result we have things like the K-01 and the Q, and Hello Kitty K-5s. And I don't know, maybe that IS their biggest market, but perhaps it's their biggest market only because they've ignored opportunities to expand into foreign markets, or haven't taken the time to understand them. Then Ricoh came along, bought up Pentax, and promptly handed the operation of their own camera business over to them, and so we get more of the same. I'm not sure they've ever made comments directed at their users overseas save for when they've been forcibly extracted like a dentist pulling teeth.

The lens road map was super to have and a positive sign.
Hopefully the future is going to be clearer.
I'm so hoping for a model above the K5.... i'm asking Pentax here to lend me a 645D with the new 90mm for a shoot, hopefully they bite

[Medium FormatPro]

The lens road map was super to have and a positive sign

Perhaps I'm missing something, but... Does the lens roadmap show any future releases beyond the five hundred and something mm fixed?? But at least Pentax is not last in lens' avaiability. It could be worse, it could be Olympus or Fuji

[Kunzite]

You can see it for yourself:
http://www.pentax.jp/english/products/lens/K_Mount_Lens.pdf

[Anvh]

Yes it's for the upcoming 2 years.

I wish they would at least give an indication on which market camera they are working on, i don't need specific details but i would like to know what to expect for upcoming release and if i would want to save my money for it or not.

[Aristophanes]

Yes it's for the upcoming 2 years.

I wish they would at least give an indication on which market camera they are working on, i don't need specific details but i would like to know what to expect for upcoming release and if i would want to save my money for it or not.

They won't do that.

If people put off purchases now for future purchases revenues in the current time would drop.

Inventory now has to sell and make a profit.

[Anvh]

If people put off purchases now for future purchases revenues in the current time would drop.

Well...
I'm hoping for a higher end camera from Pentax so yes i'm holding out my purchases to save money since i don't think the K5 mkII is a big enough upgrade over the K5 in my situation.
However i'm also looking at other camera system as well at the moment, if i've the money and Pentax haven't announced anything then i might get a different camera and system.

So it can work both ways.


The other system will most likely come anyway since it fits on another camera i want to buy.

[Medium FormatPro]

They won't do that. If people put off purchases now for future purchases revenues in the current time would drop. Inventory now has to sell and make a profit

Correct, but - the other companies such as Canon, Nikon, and many other give release dates about their new products many months out - in some cases more than six months out. I cannot believe the levels that Pentax keeps their customers in the dark on most items - especially possible ideas that are going through the pipeline. Imagine how much this would have changed camera bodies such as the K-01, versions of the Q, and actually every Pentax body recently released

[Kunzite]

You mean the other companies such as Canon, Nikon, and many other happen to announce, from time to time, cameras months away for their effective presence to the market. But in most cases, they don't do it - and before the official announcement, you have only rumors.
A lens roadmap is OK. Lenses are long-term, products are not replaced often - so a 2-year planning is nothing special/dangerous.
But a camera roadmap has too many side-effects:
- encouraging people to pay more attention to future products than the ones currently on sale. You all know the story, but I'll remind you about the Osborne effect.
- letting the competition know exactly what you're doing (as if they wouldn't...)
- limiting your possibilities to adapt to new conditions (e.g. a new competitor's product), because you promised something in the roadmap and you must stick to it

Openly discussing every detail like you are suggesting, well, if they want every good idea stolen (and possibly hastily patented next day in the morning) by others... I can see e.g. Apple suing Pentax because they patented the brick-shaped cameras
I doubt the Pentax engineers would be able to openly talk with the "we know better" forum users all over the world, anyway