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02-13-2013, 07:49 AM   #1186
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You were also happy/happier with the M-mount, did you forget? It seems to me that anything is good, as long as it's not the K-mount

Sigma's 35mm f/1.4 Art is also for K-mount; Sigma did not abandon Pentax, even if they think more specialized lenses would be unprofitable.

02-13-2013, 08:00 AM   #1187
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I guess the simple wisdom of an old "adage" if it ain't broke don't fix it" should apply here. I asked the question specifically, "Is there a technical reason to abandon the K-mount?" The answer seemed to be "No there isn't. I look at the empty space on my K-5 and less than a third of the ring is used. There is room for about another 15 control or sensor contacts.. You could design new lens with 6 or 7 contacts for a completely different type of focus control without changing the mount and have it be totally backwards compatable by keeping the screw drive and DC contacts.

So, I'd go with this as an engineer. What exactly is it about the K-mount that needs changing.

Do you really think that because Sigma doesn't make everyone of it;s lenses in K-mount, it means there's something wrong with the mount? And that it's not that Pentax is 5% market share.

Think back to when Apple was 5% market share and the number of software developers that made software for Apple. I defy you to find any other company at 5% market share of anything that has the kind of flexibility in accessory selection that Pentax does.25 million lenses out there to choose from. Half the fun of Pentax is getting an old camera for 30$ taking the lens off of it, and producing stunning pictures with it. For god's sake if you want a new mount... by a Canon or Nikon. There ya go different mount. Apparently the new Canon cameras have mounts which control stepper motors and have a feedback system so the camera knows where the lens is focused, and which way it has to go to achieve focus. it's available now. if you want it, you can get it without Pentax doing it. But Canon didn't change their mount, they just added more contacts to their existing mount. Why shouldn't Pentax do the same if they want an improved system.

I'd be much happier with a bunch of engineers discussing the pros and cons of going to a new mount than all this non-sense about how old the system is. The tires on my car are essentially the same system they used 60 years ago, and I don't see anyone saying..."we need a new way to attach the tires to a car before we bring out next year's model." I think a person making such an argument would probably be viewed as insane, by both the industry and the public. A mount is just a method of attaching a lens to a camera. Same as bolts and rims are just a method of attaching wheels to a car.

The only argument for change has to be technical.
02-13-2013, 08:44 AM   #1188
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I guess the simple wisdom of an old "adage" if it ain't broke don't fix it" should apply here. I asked the question specifically, "Is there a technical reason to abandon the K-mount?" The answer seemed to be "No there isn't.
I've tried finding the answer to the question if FF+SR was possible with K-mount. At Photokina Pentax expressed their worries about this, and opted that a new mount would be required. I just can't seem to find any solid technical arguments in these threads that convince that it IS possible.

I might have just missed it, these very interesting threads move so very quickly that I can hardly keep up.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I look at the empty space on my K-5 and less than a third of the ring is used. There is room for about another 15 control or sensor contacts.. You could design new lens with 6 or 7 contacts for a completely different type of focus control without changing the mount and have it be totally backwards compatable by keeping the screw drive and DC contacts.
True, more then enough space for extra contact points.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Do you really think that because Sigma doesn't make everyone of it;s lenses in K-mount, it means there's something wrong with the mount?
We wish it was only Sigma!

The dropping interest in PK mount doesn't indicate that there is something wrong with the mount. It's a different issue. It indicates that the PK lens market has become so small that it is not of high enough interest any longer for 3rd party lens manufacturers.

You correctly refer to the tiny 5% market share. Taking into consideration that a few years ago PK was supported by a much larger number of 3rd party manufacturers, the decreasing of off-brand PK support indicates that it is 5% and dropping, not 5% and increasing. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to turn that around. Hopefully a Pentax FF, in whatever form, will do just that.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Half the fun of Pentax is getting an old camera for 30$ taking the lens off of it, and producing stunning pictures with it.
Yes, that was great fun, while it lasted. Only the real dogs are 30$ now.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
For god's sake if you want a new mount... by a Canon or Nikon. There ya go different mount. Apparently the new Canon cameras have mounts which control stepper motors and have a feedback system so the camera knows where the lens is focused, and which way it has to go to achieve focus. it's available now. if you want it, you can get it without Pentax doing it.
Relax, already got one. And those really ARE great! That doesn't mean I would enjoy seeing Pentax go down the drain like this.


QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
But Canon didn't change their mount, they just added more contacts to their existing mount. Why shouldn't Pentax do the same if they want an improved system.
Because Canon didn't have IBIS that could get in the way of FF?
02-13-2013, 09:32 AM   #1189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I've tried finding the answer to the question if FF+SR was possible with K-mount. At Photokina Pentax expressed their worries about this, and opted that a new mount would be required. I just can't seem to find any solid technical arguments in these threads that convince that it IS possible.
It wasn't anything that definite.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The dropping interest in PK mount doesn't indicate that there is something wrong with the mount. It's a different issue. It indicates that the PK lens market has become so small that it is not of high enough interest any longer for 3rd party lens manufacturers.

You correctly refer to the tiny 5% market share. Taking into consideration that a few years ago PK was supported by a much larger number of 3rd party manufacturers, the decreasing of off-brand PK support indicates that it is 5% and dropping, not 5% and increasing. I think we all agree that something needs to be done to turn that around. Hopefully a Pentax FF, in whatever form, will do just that.
If there is nothing wrong with the mount, why change it?

What it really indicates is that some 3rd-party lens makers find less compelling to make P-K products. It doesn't necessarily indicates a decline in market share, it could be that with the current economic climate it's harder for them to support low volume products.

And there is a 3rd aspect, you are talking about what happened with Pentax while under Hoya, under heavy cost cutting and while being prepared to be sold. This is "past".

02-13-2013, 10:38 AM   #1190
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Is it a good thing that Pentax has the contacts "outside the mount" (they're on the actual mount ring) as opposed to Nikon who has them inside the mount? Does it present better possibilities for fullframe lens designs?
02-13-2013, 10:43 AM   #1191
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QuoteQuote:
Relax, already got one. And those really ARE great! That doesn't mean I would enjoy seeing Pentax go down the drain like this.
Oh really? Do tell... since i first heard about these I've been searching for information on the net about, what systems they work on and how they work... I'm dying for a report from someone who actually uses the system as opposed to some reviewer who squeezed it in between the other 15 reports he had to write this month.
02-13-2013, 11:20 AM   #1192
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Oh really? Do tell... since i first heard about these I've been searching for information on the net about, what systems they work on and how they work... I'm dying for a report from someone who actually uses the system as opposed to some reviewer who squeezed it in between the other 15 reports he had to write this month.
I've got a Canon body FF body, that's what I was referring to. Not one with the motor you mentioned. Not that the AF needs any improving, it's stellar.
02-13-2013, 02:16 PM   #1193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Anvh, we could go on forever with no result. Re-read my posts if you wish, yours as well and others' and you can see neither you nor Clavius can make a strong argument for a mount change
I never said that Pentax should change the mount to begin with.

But it would indeed be a nice opportunity for Pentax to modernize the mount with the launch of a new format, if they are planning to do that.


Last edited by Anvh; 02-13-2013 at 02:21 PM.
02-13-2013, 03:13 PM   #1194
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I give up. I can't understand someone who never said Pentax should change the mount, yet it strongly advocates such a change.
02-13-2013, 03:31 PM   #1195
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Is was not advocating that pentax should change, if was advocating that if pentax should change that i would like to have the M mount for an mirrorless FF system.
02-14-2013, 05:01 AM   #1196
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Desirable features for a FF

For the recent Forum point gathering - the Photo Expo - I could have added "AF in Zoom while Recording in Video mode" to my wishlist. I understand C have just released this feature on their FF camera (also found on N FF range) and I believe it is very popular.... Now where's that "Like" tab??
02-14-2013, 05:03 AM - 2 Likes   #1197
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I'm really finding this Lens mount discussion both interesting and fruitless. One The PK mount is perfectly fine .... Yes More contact points can be added and they can update the AF, the Mount and whatever else they want but at what cost to the users? Let me put it to you this way, I have Pro Grade Lenses dating back to 1983 ( Pentax, Vivitar, Sigma & Tokina ) equating to a investment of well over 15K USD. If the Backward compatibility of the mount was hampered or changed it would be just like starting all over again. I can point to this same issue with Canon and Nikon when they changed their mounts when they went digital. I had friends that had to discard or replace Pro grade lenses to keep up with the Jones. Thank God Pentax didn't do this, and I still shoot in Manual Focus ( because for some shoots Manual is preferred). I would tell those that say that this or that should be different, or that Pentax should do this or that ..... really examine their Photographic skills! I will quote Monte Zucker and Frank Dispensa when they say "it is less about the camera, and more about the vision and skill of the Photographer".

Also does this Rant about Lens mounts get a FF out faster , not a darn bit. As we all wait for the emergence of the Pentax FULL FRAME Camera I would say to the wanna be camera engineers get a job at Pentax and build a camera that Pentaxians want and desire (not what you want and desire). It all comes down to what the User community wants, If they came out with a totally Manual FF ( No AF, No setting other than M) I would be fine with that because I can use a camera the way it was meant to be used as a expression of my artistic vision. I tell People who just start out shooting to slow down and wait for the photo and not machine gun pics. With over 30 yrs of Shooting Experience ( both Semi Pro and Professionally ) I care less about the add ons and technical aspects of the Camera itself, but more of the Picture Quality and capability to shoot quickly and fluidly on the fly as needed, to this end Pentax has served me well it is still designed like a CAMERA (not a Computer in a Camera Chassis).
02-14-2013, 05:44 AM   #1198
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QuoteOriginally posted by geojazz Quote
I will quote Monte Zucker and Frank Dispensa when they say "it is less about the camera, and more about the vision and skill of the Photographer"... I care less about the add ons and technical aspects of the Camera itself, but more of the Picture Quality and capability to shoot quickly and fluidly on the fly as needed,
Absolutely right on!

In many ways, the DSLRs of today are more often used as little more than big "point and shoots".

Indeed, in post after post here, we read seemingly endless comparisons of this or that aspect of technical camera minutiae and the breathless anticipation of what other so-called technical "improvement" is coming down the road.

Unfortunately, precious little discussion centers on the composition and artistic aspects of what we do. Maybe that's because both skills are acquired over many years and simply cannot be quantified.

Like you, I have a boatload of old SMC Pentax and Takumar glass that suits my purposes well. In most cases, I've found these older lenses are absolutely superior to the plastic innards and Plexiglas of today's lens offerings...if you know how to correctly apply a modicum of exposure and focusing skills. About the only real "improvement" I've noted in the digital world is that I'm no longer spending a fortune in film developing.

Over the years (and, again, like you) I've found that, sometimes "new and improved" isn't necessarily such.

And "better" is often the enemy of "good enough".
02-14-2013, 06:20 AM   #1199
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QuoteOriginally posted by KB1SFVE3 Quote
Absolutely right on!

In many ways, the DSLRs of today are more often used as little more than big "point and shoots".

Indeed, in post after post here, we read seemingly endless comparisons of this or that aspect of technical camera minutiae and the breathless anticipation of what other so-called technical "improvement" is coming down the road.

Unfortunately, precious little discussion centers on the composition and artistic aspects of what we do. Maybe that's because both skills are acquired over many years and simply cannot be quantified.

Like you, I have a boatload of old SMC Pentax and Takumar glass that suits my purposes well. In most cases, I've found these older lenses are absolutely superior to the plastic innards and Plexiglas of today's lens offerings...if you know how to correctly apply a modicum of exposure and focusing skills. About the only real "improvement" I've noted in the digital world is that I'm no longer spending a fortune in film developing.

Over the years (and, again, like you) I've found that, sometimes "new and improved" isn't necessarily such.

And "better" is often the enemy of "good enough".
Can I get a Hallelujah & a Amen!!
I often tell people getting a DSLR that before they click the shutter once they should take a B&W film Photography course at their local college! People today move from a Point and Shoot to a DSLR still compose everything with the viewscreen and they buy High end cameras to do this ( Shaking head in disbelief) . You need to understand your camera totally first just like the Exposure trinity (ISO, Shutter speed, & F Stop) there is a trinity for taking good pictures (Composition, Capability of the Photographer, & finally the Camera). Bad habits are created when you only know P&S cameras and transition to a DSLR ( you do what you know). A DSLR is a totally different bear!!!

Now let us return to our Previously Scheduled Programming "HOW TO GET THE PENTAX FF TO MARKET QUICKER"!!
02-14-2013, 10:28 AM   #1200
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But who is saying you can't fit K lenses on a new mount?
just look at what m4/3th, canon M, Nikon 1, Sony nex and the discussing was not about a DSLR but a mirrorless FF system.

Pentax have said that if they would do an 135 format camera that they would do something special, a mirrorless is therefore not so far fetch sadly enough. Sony has now an FF without an optical viewfinder so who knows.

What your discussion is about how you can use a DSLR as a point and shoot... i don't understand how that bears relationship to the new mount discusion.
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