How to push the Pentax Full-Frame Idea and get that FF out faster...

Tesla · 08-31-2014, 07:34 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Alcazar

what insights into the market do you have that you come to that conclusion?

afaik they say there's only a market for it if it has a unique selling point. making a FF is one thing, making a FF with a strong USP is another. if the Pentax FF is spec'd and priced just like the canikon full frames, then people will keep buying those. i guess for Pentax the cost of R&D, marketing and rollout is only worth it if they can sell the FF not only to existing customers, but also convert people from other brands.

It is simple. If you make a good product, people will buy it. If they load up the FF with everything from the K-3, plus better flash sync.. there is no reason they can't attract users from other brands or first time FF users. IMO if Ricoh/Pentax wants to be a solid third, they need a FF.

The FF sensors don't cost much more to make than the APS-C sensors because the process is all automated and they are now mass produced.. that isn't an issue.

There are already many FF lenses out there for the K-mount... that isn't an issue.

They already have a great K-5/K-3 body that could be used... that isn't an issue.

They have R&D.. what else do they have to work on besides faster flash sync... that isn't an issue.

If there is no market and it isn't profitable.. would the other camera companies bother making them.. that isn't an issue.

The only issue I can think of is getting SR/Simulated AA to work with FF/K-mount. I don't think they can figure it out.

Of course this is all my opinion.. but I think there is truth to it.

**Rondec** · 09-01-2014, 03:12 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Tesla

It is simple. If you make a good product, people will buy it. If they load up the FF with everything from the K-3, plus better flash sync.. there is no reason they can't attract users from other brands or first time FF users. IMO if Ricoh/Pentax wants to be a solid third, they need a FF.

The FF sensors don't cost much more to make than the APS-C sensors because the process is all automated and they are now mass produced.. that isn't an issue.

There are already many FF lenses out there for the K-mount... that isn't an issue.

They already have a great K-5/K-3 body that could be used... that isn't an issue.

They have R&D.. what else do they have to work on besides faster flash sync... that isn't an issue.

If there is no market and it isn't profitable.. would the other camera companies bother making them.. that isn't an issue.

The only issue I can think of is getting SR/Simulated AA to work with FF/K-mount. I don't think they can figure it out.

Of course this is all my opinion.. but I think there is truth to it.

Pentax needs two things -- first of all is an adequate base of users that could support a full frame camera. By the time Canon and Nikon users are ready for full frame, they have usually purchased several full frame lenses and are pretty locked into the brand. Not saying they can't switch, but it certainly is tougher than just continuing on the full frame path set before them. Pentax doesn't have this solid base. If 10 percent of Pentax photographers upgraded to full frame (an astronomically high percentage in my opinion), I don't think it would pay for the R and D of such a camera, unless it was priced higher than the competition.

The second thing they need is some feature that is not present in the competition that would draw people to decide to switch. The two things I can think of would be unusual glass and SR on the sensor. Clearly SR can be done on the sensor with a full frame camera -- Sony did it, but it might require different implementation from Pentax's current camera. Without such a feature, releasing a Pentax branded version of the D600 or D800 with a little smaller size and better ergonomics would be a fail in the market place.

Clearly there will be a need for at least four new zooms and a couple of primes as well. Zooms would need to be available on launch with a road map for future development plans. Old lenses aren't going to draw new users in -- you could just as easily buy a NEX camera, it that's all you are using. The idea is having the ability to control aperture, etc from the body and have auto focus.

Maybe the most solid investment in the future would be mirrorless full frame, with good ergonomics and SR in the body...

gazonk · 09-01-2014, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Maybe the most solid investment in the future would be mirrorless full frame, with good ergonomics and SR in the body...

Possibly. I still don't think much of EVFs, but it's obvious that they will get better every year, so I'm not sure it makes sense to build a completely new SLR system at this time.

easyreeder · 09-01-2014, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

By the time Canon and Nikon users are ready for full frame, they have usually purchased several full frame lenses and are pretty locked into the brand.

The best Canon lenses are so pricey that, for example, buying a new A7 with the desired lens is less expensive than buying one more lens. Also, there's quite a bit of Pentax glass on other bodies, via adapters.

thibs · 09-01-2014, 10:21 AM

Nikon lenses are no better.
Pentax lenses are not expensive per se but they are in the context.
For primes Nikon is easy: the f/1.8 serie. Too bad the D600 is so boring and D810 so expensive.

Floydjkt · 09-03-2014, 08:34 AM

Can we believe in a Photokina announcement or an unveiling of any prototype?

normhead · 09-03-2014, 08:38 AM

Looking at this thread, started in 2006... there are some long suffering folks on here. As for "getting the FF out faster"... it's closing in on 100 pages, and 8 years... with no end in sight.

Floydjkt · 09-03-2014, 08:44 AM

The official statement is that a ff is under development...i hope this process won't go on another year...

normhead · 09-03-2014, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Floydjkt

The official statement is that a ff is under development...i hope this process won't go on another year...

Just not that it's ever going to be released..

But I'm getting really sceptical, so that's a sure sign it's about to be released, probably after I give up hope and declare Pentax will never , ever under any circumstances release a full frame. Those guys over at Pentax just like making me look like an idiot. I can see them over in their little offices rubbing their hands with glee... "Norm Head is just about ready to give up on an FF, get the production lines ready." The one thing the marketing department is sure of, if I think i want one, it's going to be a flop.

ElJamoquio · 09-03-2014, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Looking at this thread, started in 2006... there are some long suffering folks on here. As for "getting the FF out faster"... it's closing in on 100 pages, and 8 years... with no end in sight.

*This* thread was started in January 2012 IIRC.

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 10:51 AM ----------

Originally posted by normhead

Just not that it's ever going to be released..

But I'm getting really sceptical, so that's a sure sign it's about to be released, probably after I give up hope and declare Pentax will never , ever under any circumstances release a full frame. Those guys over at Pentax just like making me look like an idiot. I can see them over in their little offices rubbing their hands with glee... "Norm Head is just about ready to give up on an FF, get the production lines ready." The one thing the marketing department is sure of, if I think i want one, it's going to be a flop.

I thought they would release one in March 2013, a couple of months after I gave in and purchased a D600.

**Belnan** · 09-03-2014, 05:01 PM

Pentax realizes that not many canikon users are going to jump ship to a Pentax full frame. The next flagship K mount is likely to be a full frame dslr, probably not september more likely in the spring but you never know.

**Pepe Guitarra** · 09-03-2014, 06:59 PM

I gave up 3 years ago. Got a 5dii Canon, got bunch of lenses and developed back pain of careying everything through England. Then sold Canon gear and got Leica FF, a lot more expensive. Then K3 came out an loved it. Now, I do not want Pentax Ff. I have Leica and love my K3.

fuent104 · 09-03-2014, 08:35 PM - **1 Like**

I'm hoping Photokina will mean the announcement of a roughly ZX-5N style and sized full frame SLR or K-mount mirrorless, with new HD FA Limiteds, plus an 85mm prime and a 100mm prime. And DA-L version of the Limiteds.

hansenn · 09-07-2014, 05:41 AM - **2 Likes**

2 years ago I was hoping on a pentax/ricoh FF introduction at the Photokina. They didn't, so I bought a K5-IIs. It's a good camera and actually It can produce as much quality as a FF camera ....... if you use a tripod.
But I,m not the kind of photographer who likes to walk around with heavy stuff. I,m more a point and shoot photographer, that's why I want a FF. . . . . . taking pics without worrying about noise or unsharpness. Moving subjects or bad light conditions: just set ISO to 400-800 and shoot.
Now I always shoot at ISO 100-160. Ok for sunny weather, but on cloudy days not favorable.

I have my K5-IIs now two years and will keep it for anoher year. If Pentax doesn't have a FF by that time, I will buy another brand, sorry, but unfortunately

gazonk · 09-08-2014, 03:48 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by hansenn

But I,m not the kind of photographer who likes to walk around with heavy stuff. I,m more a point and shoot photographer, that's why I want a FF. . . . . . taking pics without worrying about noise or unsharpness. Moving subjects or bad light conditions: just set ISO to 400-800 and shoot.
Now I always shoot at ISO 100-160. Ok for sunny weather, but on cloudy days not favorable.

That doesn't really make sense. No FF camera, not even the A7s, has ISO 800 that is as good as ISO 160 on your K-5iis.

And besides, I don't really hesitate at all to use ISO 800 on my K-5. Of course I leave it at ISO 80 as often as I can because of the headroom it gives me in PP, but I only very rarely encounter problematic noise in my ISO 800 shots.

09-03-2014, 05:01 PM	#1481
Belnan Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Nova Scotia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,090	Full Frame will come soon Pentax realizes that not many canikon users are going to jump ship to a Pentax full frame. The next flagship K mount is likely to be a full frame dslr, probably not september more likely in the spring but you never know.

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08-31-2014, 07:34 PM - 1 Like	#1471
Tesla Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Washington State Posts: 589	Originally posted by Alcazar what insights into the market do you have that you come to that conclusion? afaik they say there's only a market for it if it has a unique selling point. making a FF is one thing, making a FF with a strong USP is another. if the Pentax FF is spec'd and priced just like the canikon full frames, then people will keep buying those. i guess for Pentax the cost of R&D, marketing and rollout is only worth it if they can sell the FF not only to existing customers, but also convert people from other brands. It is simple. If you make a good product, people will buy it. If they load up the FF with everything from the K-3, plus better flash sync.. there is no reason they can't attract users from other brands or first time FF users. IMO if Ricoh/Pentax wants to be a solid third, they need a FF. The FF sensors don't cost much more to make than the APS-C sensors because the process is all automated and they are now mass produced.. that isn't an issue. There are already many FF lenses out there for the K-mount... that isn't an issue. They already have a great K-5/K-3 body that could be used... that isn't an issue. They have R&D.. what else do they have to work on besides faster flash sync... that isn't an issue. If there is no market and it isn't profitable.. would the other camera companies bother making them.. that isn't an issue. The only issue I can think of is getting SR/Simulated AA to work with FF/K-mount. I don't think they can figure it out. Of course this is all my opinion.. but I think there is truth to it.

09-01-2014, 03:12 AM - 1 Like	#1472
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by Tesla It is simple. If you make a good product, people will buy it. If they load up the FF with everything from the K-3, plus better flash sync.. there is no reason they can't attract users from other brands or first time FF users. IMO if Ricoh/Pentax wants to be a solid third, they need a FF. The FF sensors don't cost much more to make than the APS-C sensors because the process is all automated and they are now mass produced.. that isn't an issue. There are already many FF lenses out there for the K-mount... that isn't an issue. They already have a great K-5/K-3 body that could be used... that isn't an issue. They have R&D.. what else do they have to work on besides faster flash sync... that isn't an issue. If there is no market and it isn't profitable.. would the other camera companies bother making them.. that isn't an issue. The only issue I can think of is getting SR/Simulated AA to work with FF/K-mount. I don't think they can figure it out. Of course this is all my opinion.. but I think there is truth to it. Pentax needs two things -- first of all is an adequate base of users that could support a full frame camera. By the time Canon and Nikon users are ready for full frame, they have usually purchased several full frame lenses and are pretty locked into the brand. Not saying they can't switch, but it certainly is tougher than just continuing on the full frame path set before them. Pentax doesn't have this solid base. If 10 percent of Pentax photographers upgraded to full frame (an astronomically high percentage in my opinion), I don't think it would pay for the R and D of such a camera, unless it was priced higher than the competition. The second thing they need is some feature that is not present in the competition that would draw people to decide to switch. The two things I can think of would be unusual glass and SR on the sensor. Clearly SR can be done on the sensor with a full frame camera -- Sony did it, but it might require different implementation from Pentax's current camera. Without such a feature, releasing a Pentax branded version of the D600 or D800 with a little smaller size and better ergonomics would be a fail in the market place. Clearly there will be a need for at least four new zooms and a couple of primes as well. Zooms would need to be available on launch with a road map for future development plans. Old lenses aren't going to draw new users in -- you could just as easily buy a NEX camera, it that's all you are using. The idea is having the ability to control aperture, etc from the body and have auto focus. Maybe the most solid investment in the future would be mirrorless full frame, with good ergonomics and SR in the body...

09-01-2014, 04:25 AM	#1473
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Rondec Maybe the most solid investment in the future would be mirrorless full frame, with good ergonomics and SR in the body... Possibly. I still don't think much of EVFs, but it's obvious that they will get better every year, so I'm not sure it makes sense to build a completely new SLR system at this time.

09-01-2014, 05:12 AM	#1474
easyreeder Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Albums Posts: 128	Originally posted by Rondec By the time Canon and Nikon users are ready for full frame, they have usually purchased several full frame lenses and are pretty locked into the brand. The best Canon lenses are so pricey that, for example, buying a new A7 with the desired lens is less expensive than buying one more lens. Also, there's quite a bit of Pentax glass on other bodies, via adapters.

09-01-2014, 10:21 AM	#1475
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Nikon lenses are no better. Pentax lenses are not expensive per se but they are in the context. For primes Nikon is easy: the f/1.8 serie. Too bad the D600 is so boring and D810 so expensive.

09-03-2014, 08:34 AM	#1476
Floydjkt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 25	Can we believe in a Photokina announcement or an unveiling of any prototype?

09-03-2014, 08:38 AM	#1477
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Looking at this thread, started in 2006... there are some long suffering folks on here. As for "getting the FF out faster"... it's closing in on 100 pages, and 8 years... with no end in sight.

09-03-2014, 08:44 AM	#1478
Floydjkt Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 25	The official statement is that a ff is under development...i hope this process won't go on another year...

09-03-2014, 09:02 AM	#1479
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by Floydjkt The official statement is that a ff is under development...i hope this process won't go on another year... Just not that it's ever going to be released.. But I'm getting really sceptical, so that's a sure sign it's about to be released, probably after I give up hope and declare Pentax will never , ever under any circumstances release a full frame. Those guys over at Pentax just like making me look like an idiot. I can see them over in their little offices rubbing their hands with glee... "Norm Head is just about ready to give up on an FF, get the production lines ready." The one thing the marketing department is sure of, if I think i want one, it's going to be a flop.

09-03-2014, 10:50 AM	#1480
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by normhead Looking at this thread, started in 2006... there are some long suffering folks on here. As for "getting the FF out faster"... it's closing in on 100 pages, and 8 years... with no end in sight. This thread was started in January 2012 IIRC. ---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 10:51 AM ---------- Originally posted by normhead Just not that it's ever going to be released.. But I'm getting really sceptical, so that's a sure sign it's about to be released, probably after I give up hope and declare Pentax will never , ever under any circumstances release a full frame. Those guys over at Pentax just like making me look like an idiot. I can see them over in their little offices rubbing their hands with glee... "Norm Head is just about ready to give up on an FF, get the production lines ready." The one thing the marketing department is sure of, if I think i want one, it's going to be a flop. I thought they would release one in March 2013, a couple of months after I gave in and purchased a D600.

09-03-2014, 06:59 PM	#1482
Pepe Guitarra Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,223	I gave up 3 years ago. Got a 5dii Canon, got bunch of lenses and developed back pain of careying everything through England. Then sold Canon gear and got Leica FF, a lot more expensive. Then K3 came out an loved it. Now, I do not want Pentax Ff. I have Leica and love my K3.

09-03-2014, 08:35 PM - 1 Like	#1483
fuent104 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,356	I'm hoping Photokina will mean the announcement of a roughly ZX-5N style and sized full frame SLR or K-mount mirrorless, with new HD FA Limiteds, plus an 85mm prime and a 100mm prime. And DA-L version of the Limiteds.

09-07-2014, 05:41 AM - 2 Likes	#1484
hansenn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: twente Photos: Gallery Posts: 123	2 years ago I was hoping on a pentax/ricoh FF introduction at the Photokina. They didn't, so I bought a K5-IIs. It's a good camera and actually It can produce as much quality as a FF camera ....... if you use a tripod. But I,m not the kind of photographer who likes to walk around with heavy stuff. I,m more a point and shoot photographer, that's why I want a FF. . . . . . taking pics without worrying about noise or unsharpness. Moving subjects or bad light conditions: just set ISO to 400-800 and shoot. Now I always shoot at ISO 100-160. Ok for sunny weather, but on cloudy days not favorable. I have my K5-IIs now two years and will keep it for anoher year. If Pentax doesn't have a FF by that time, I will buy another brand, sorry, but unfortunately

09-08-2014, 03:48 AM - 1 Like	#1485
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by hansenn But I,m not the kind of photographer who likes to walk around with heavy stuff. I,m more a point and shoot photographer, that's why I want a FF. . . . . . taking pics without worrying about noise or unsharpness. Moving subjects or bad light conditions: just set ISO to 400-800 and shoot. Now I always shoot at ISO 100-160. Ok for sunny weather, but on cloudy days not favorable. That doesn't really make sense. No FF camera, not even the A7s, has ISO 800 that is as good as ISO 160 on your K-5iis. And besides, I don't really hesitate at all to use ISO 800 on my K-5. Of course I leave it at ISO 80 as often as I can because of the headroom it gives me in PP, but I only very rarely encounter problematic noise in my ISO 800 shots.