[traderdrew]

Just thought I would say I am not for or against a full frame camera. I don't need it in the field. I shoot wildlife more than 99% of the time. I notice guys with FF cameras in the field use teleconverters with them. So what do you have when you have a teleconverter on a FF?

If you ask me the way to get a FF camera is to show off your images and this will help Pentax sales:

Flickr: Andrew's Wildlife's Photostream

[Mehlsack]

Well, you might be right in regards of "showing of"

BUT, iam an activ participant in a german forum, and you can trust me in almost EVERY Thread about " Which DSLR to buy", one of the first arguments against pentax is "no upgrade path to FF" and this are arguments which are heard by the "newcomers" because they dont want to invest in something which lead them in a dead end. Most people dont even now what FF means or what it is good for, and of course they do not realise that most of their "cheap" lenses arn't usable on an FF DSLR....

But the simplicity of "something" bigger out there, makes people choose brands. ( besides other reasons)
The MF 645D is something different, it just too much "out of reach", its "too" special.

And it doesnt has Nikon, or Canon printed on it AND, it doesn't do 10 billion frames a second

[falconeye]

I notice guys with FF cameras in the field use teleconverters with them. So what do you have when you have a teleconverter on a FF?
...
Flickr: Andrew's Wildlife's Photostream

Andrew, your wildlife photos are plain wonderful! Thanks for sharing.

You think FF+TC = crop, but it's not this esay ...

You really have to compare the pixel pitch and e.g., a K-5 and D800 seem to have the same. But I do agree, the large pitch FFs like D700 need TCs and don't outperform APSC when it comes to reach.

[Don Boyd]

That's not true. But the loss of Pentaxians to the FF camp is indeed worrysome.

My guess is that the trend accelerates with the D800. E.g., a fellow Pentaxian "upgraded" from K-7 to D7000 last year to have more options (keeping the K-7). But now, he decided to preorder the D800 and sold the K-7 and all Pentax glass. Interestingly, he is #15 on the waiting list for the D800 now. To be clear: in one particular retail store and for a product which is rumor only and can't be preordered. At least not officially...

Falconeye has hit the nail on the head for me. I have followed this thread with interest, enjoying the analysis by folks who have a whole lot of both marketing and digital camera experience. I would buy the 645D if I could afford it, and see a FF as the next best alternative for mostly landscape work. I have some P67 glass and a 50-135 and DA300 to go with my K20d and would like to stay with Pentax if possible. Their lenses are as good as anybody's, and are more affordable. Plus, the cameras just feel good in my hand. But hearing, what are admittedly just rumors, about the Nikon D800 and the Canon 5d III, and nothing from Pentax, I think my hand may be forced soon. While it is hard to believe that they would buy Pentax with out a plan coming in, their silence has me wondering if that really is the case. If the rumors are true, I'm weeks away from needing to make a decison about joining Falconeye's "fellow Pentaxian" in the D800 queue.

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Last edited by Don Boyd; 01-23-2012 at 09:47 PM.

[Kunzite]

Why are you asking the question if you give the answer yourself?

Seriously, SLR will survive, but based on their strentgths, not weakness, i.e., optical viewfinder, phase AF speed and accuracy, overall speed, and stunning image quality. All of that means FF.

APSC will survive, but based on their strentgths, not weakness, i.e., compactness, mass producability, video capability (ead EVF). All of that means mirrorless.

Which will make APS-C dSLRs join their 4/3 dSLR fellows.

And Pentax can't determine the moment in time when this happens. Canikon does. So, not joining both the mirrorless AND FF camps now is a game only unreasonable management can play, risking to loose the entire company. Because the moment when it happens, they wouldn't have enough time left to react.

I disagree.
There is no sign of FF becoming anything else than a niche product; there is no sign of them getting so much cheaper. And while things remains like this, there will be demand for a more affordable, fast enough, good enough DSLR - that's APS-C.
This doesn't mean Pentax shouldn't make a FF/larger sensor mirrorless.

What can kill APS-C DSLRs (but I find it highly unlikely in the next decade) is marketing, pushing hard an immature, inferior technology as a replacement for the OVF.

[Emacs]

What can kill APS-C DSLRs (but I find it highly unlikely in the next decade) is marketing, pushing hard an immature, inferior technology as a replacement for the OVF.

Dude, this "inferior" tech can utilize way much better optics (I mean M-mount one), the difference is especially remarkable at wide angle.
It provides way much better manual focusing experience (well, one funny member here, Clavius, keep shouting he has much better hit ratio with his Porst 55/1.2 and K-5. It definitely wasn't my case, when I had almost 0% hit ratio with K-5 OVF + A50/1.2).
Significant weaknesses today is quite narrow DR and tracking AF. This will be resolved in 1-2 generations. Although AF is not an issue when compared to Pentax cameras: we all know about crappy AF they have

[Asahiflex]

Dude, this "inferior" tech can utilize way much better optics (I mean M-mount one), the difference is especially remarkable at wide angle.
It provides way much better manual focusing experience (well, one funny member here, Clavius, keep shouting he has much better hit ratio with his Porst 55/1.2 and K-5. It definitely wasn't my case, when I had almost 0% hit ratio with K-5 OVF + A50/1.2).
Significant weaknesses today is quite narrow DR and tracking AF. This will be resolved in 1-2 generations. Although AF is not an issue when compared to Pentax cameras: we all know about crappy AF they have

Dude, there are superb manual focusing screens out there, ready to be fitted in the K-5. You know very well that the K-5's stock screen is not suitable for MF lenses, don't you?

Even with the stock screen I have a 50% hit rate with static (!) subjects and my A50/1.2. Moving subjects are impossible to catch wide open

[MMVIII]

It provides way much better manual focusing experience (well, one funny member here, Clavius, keep shouting he has much better hit ratio with his Porst 55/1.2 and K-5. It definitely wasn't my case, when I had almost 0% hit ratio with K-5 OVF + A50/1.2).
Significant weaknesses today is quite narrow DR and tracking AF. This will be resolved in 1-2 generations. Although AF is not an issue when compared to Pentax cameras: we all know about crappy AF they have

Oh, come on. Don't perpetuate urban myths. I don't give much on (not professionally carried out) lab-tests, but this is the second one that has been won by Pentax AF:
pdf! ColorFoto German Magazine 2011-09

Just in short: they think CDAF has some edge here, but from the PDAF-gang Pentax K-5 has the best result! The first bar at the images means Nr. of "sharp" images, the second "acceptable", third "unsharp".

I know, your point was not about facts, but polemics, but still...

[Clavius]

Agreed, like I said before, when I miss shots I don't blame it on the AF system. It's mostly human error.

IME, CIF of the K5 is very fast and accurate, even with a ƒ1.2. It uses the AF system, so the type of screen doesn't matter. The viewfinder is only used for composing and framing. CIF is greatly underestimated.

Of course it has it's limitations. When using it on fast moving subjects I have to use hi continuous shooting together with CIF. In other words: focus bracketing. It goes "prrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt" and there's always a few very good keepers. (Yes, shamelessly machinegunning, but otherwise impossible.)

But yes, MF without CIF is nearly impossible with a stock screen. But why not use a focus aid like CIF? And why is it suddely OK to use a MF-focus aid, like the slower peak-focussing, when there's an EVF?

[Emacs]

Even with the stock screen I have a 50% hit rate with static (!) subjects and my A50/1.2. Moving subjects are impossible to catch wide open

And breaks metering. OK

[Asahiflex]

And breaks metering. OK

Not in my opinion, but I hardly ever shoot with spot metering (I think this is where you are referring to). It does not break center weighted average metering or the green metering modes.

[falconeye]

I disagree.
There is no sign of FF becoming anything else than a niche product; there is no sign of them getting so much cheaper.

This is what I tried to say:
There is no smooth trend, linear extrapolation won't work. FF dSLRs will "happen" as soon as Canikon decides they need more volume in the $1500 segment they can't get with APSC or mirrorless. When this doesn happen, we don't know. But it will. And Pentax won't be prepared, that's a problem.

[Asahiflex]

And Pentax won't be prepared, that's a problem.

And you don't know that for sure. If the past is an indication (see what happened with the 645D and the Q) then Pentax already has more than one working prototype but they are waiting for the right sensor (i.e. in the right price bracket). I'm more than convinced that pentax is/was working on a model between the K-5 and the 645D, purely by looking at the enormous price gap between those models.

[Samsungian]

I'm also waiting to see 5D Mark III and D800 launch at CP+ imaging show in Japan to decide what to do with my K20D kit with all Pentax full frame glass. Its curious that Pentax/Hoya/Ricoh boasts of backward compatibility, has yet to offer any 24x36 sensor dslrs for the loyal K Mount owners who remain.

See the images of unreleased Canon EOS 200-400mm and their newest 600mm f4 out on safari in Africa shot with a possible 5D Mark III attached.


APERTURE ACADEMY - Fine Art Photography Gallery, Digital Photography Workshops: Canon 200-400mm and 600mm prototype lenses first sightings...and the new 5D Mark III?


CP+ 2012 should prove quite exciting for Niche Full Frame Canikon owners

Falconeye has hit the nail on the head for me. I have followed this thread with interest, enjoying the analysis by folks who have a whole lot of both marketing and digital camera experience. I would buy the 645D if I could afford it, and see a FF as the next best alternative for mostly landscape work. I have some P67 glass and a 50-135 and DA300 to go with my K20d and would like to stay with Pentax if possible. Their lenses are as good as anybody's, and are more affordable. Plus, the cameras just feel good in my hand. But hearing, what are admittedly just rumors, about the Nikon D800 and the Canon 5d III, and nothing from Pentax, I think my hand may be forced soon. While it is hard to believe that they would buy Pentax with out a plan coming in, their silence has me wondering if that really is the case. If the rumors are true, I'm weeks away from needing to make a decison about joining Falconeye's "fellow Pentaxian" in the D800 queue.

[Fontan]

There won't be a DSLR with FF sensor in the near future. If Pentax will indeed go FF, it will be mirrorless.