[Medium FormatPro]

Pentax again missed the boat on this "generation" of FF, using the sensors that are on the market now.

These existing FF sensors will be used in existing only cameras (also ones that will be released up until about February or March, and (very much) not in anything from Pentax. If Pentax ever elected to go FF then they would also wait until yet another generation of FF's were released from other companies such as Canon and Nikon. Bottom line, don't expect any FF from Pentax within the next two years. Most would be willing to bet against Pentax on this one

[olimatt]

Well... It is really annoying that pentax communicates poorly with its customers. Unless pentax announces a FF in january next year, I will sell all my pentax gear (including my beloved zeiss zk lenses) and will probably get a canon 6d or leica M.

[SyncGuy]

Well... It is really annoying that pentax communicates poorly with its customers. Unless pentax announces a FF in january next year, I will sell all my pentax gear (including my beloved zeiss zk lenses) and will probably get a canon 6d or leica M.

Erm.. Why Canon 6D? Wouldn't the Nikon D600 be better in comparison? Just saying...... I totally understand your anger and frustration! So if you do switch, pass me all your Pentax gears and i'll burn it for you..

[mecrox]

Pentax again missed the boat on this "generation" of FF, using the sensors that are on the market now.

These existing FF sensors will be used in existing only cameras (also ones that will be released up until about February or March, and (very much) not in anything from Pentax. If Pentax ever elected to go FF then they would also wait until yet another generation of FF's were released from other companies such as Canon and Nikon. Bottom line, don't expect any FF from Pentax within the next two years. Most would be willing to bet against Pentax on this one

Folks always talk about the hardware but I would guess that software will be just as or more important in the next few years. Consumers looking for mainstream cameras will increasingly expect their camera to behave like the smartphone they started with and still use. That means big touch screens on the back and snappy programmes from which everything can be controlled in the style of, say, camera+, instagram or snapseed on IOS. Few camera-makers seem to have gotten serious about this as yet, though there are a some attempts out there, but the ones who don't get with the programme might well be left stranded. And without those mainstream camera sales, no outfit will have the base from which to support new models be they FF or any other format. So I don't see FF as being that much of a priority for Pentax even though they might like to do it. Getting all that software right and the electronics it will require is a really big job. Actually, I suspect that for many years Pentax didn't want to do FF anyway, having made such a big bet on APS-C that they were loathe to do anything which might undercut it. They could still keep away from FF on DSLR and wait until it starts to appear on mirrorless (Sony RX1, etc.) which means they could sidestep the problem of getting together a decent line of FF lenses. All speculation. We'll see.

[Clavius]

Folks always talk about the hardware but I would guess that software will be just as or more important in the next few years. Consumers looking for mainstream cameras will increasingly expect their camera to behave like the smartphone they started with and still use. That means big touch screens on the back and snappy programmes from which everything can be controlled in the style of, say, camera+, instagram or snapseed on IOS.

Very true! Recently, I found myself wonder why my 1200 euro camera can't even do sweep-panorama's, like most smartphones can. I find that difference a bit absurd.

That said, I would find a touch screen on a DSLR horrifying.

Actually, I suspect that for many years Pentax didn't want to do FF anyway, having made such a big bet on APS-C that they were loathe to do anything which might undercut it. They could still keep away from FF on DSLR and wait until it starts to appear on mirrorless (Sony RX1, etc.) which means they could sidestep the problem of getting together a decent line of FF lenses. All speculation. We'll see.

That's another good reason why Pentax should start out with a mirrorless FF, instead of a FF DSLR.

[Medium FormatPro]

Folks always talk about the hardware but I would guess that software will be just as or more important in the next few years. Consumers looking for mainstream cameras will increasingly expect their camera to behave like the smartphone they started with and still use

But also consider the following; minus adjustments in what money can actually purchase in the real world… In the 80's and 90's how many people out there actually purchased slr's, better yet some of the intermediate and advanced ones?? Yet today someone can go out and purchase one for about five hundred for starters and for less than 2k can get an above average one - perhaps with even two lens'. Then there are all the goodies that go along with it.

Back in the 80's again, and through most of the 90's most people never would have dreamed (or would have wanted to) in purchasing a computer for about 1k and then an additional 1k for items like CS.

Sure there will be a small market for the touchscreen users, but… I also see FF going through the roof in terms of sales; especially given the new price lower limits - of about 2k.

[Kunzite]

Actually, I suspect that for many years Pentax didn't want to do FF anyway, having made such a big bet on APS-C that they were loathe to do anything which might undercut it. They could still keep away from FF on DSLR and wait until it starts to appear on mirrorless (Sony RX1, etc.) which means they could sidestep the problem of getting together a decent line of FF lenses. All speculation. We'll see.

How so? MILC or DSLR, that camera would still require a lens line-up. Except that a DSLR would have some (native) suitable lenses, from the beginning; and any new, FF lenses would be perfectly usable on APS-C - higher market, lower costs.

By the way, it won't happen.

[mecrox]

How so? MILC or DSLR, that camera would still require a lens line-up. Except that a DSLR would have some (native) suitable lenses, from the beginning; and any new, FF lenses would be perfectly usable on APS-C - higher market, lower costs.

By the way, it won't happen.

I really don't think anyone would expect an FF MILC, perhaps Fuji style, to come with a gazillion lenses. A few of course, but essentially it takes the heat off having to have a big catalogue of them right out to XXX hundred mm. Pentax isn't Nikon or Canon and it's a bit of a fantasy to see them in the same park, imho. The more's the pity if it won't happen, although how anyone can be sure beats me. With a conventional FF DSLR, Pentax would be going big, really big, just as the future of mainstream cameras starts to look is if it lies in smaller but with more sophisticated software and perhaps new spins on sensors (non-Bayer, e.g.). Big, which increasingly means specialized and not mainstream, can stay with Canon or Nikon or Sony at a pinch or jump right into MF. I think we'd all be happier if folks gave up the fantasy that Ricoh + Pentax = Canon-slayer come Nikon terminator. Not a chance.

[Clavius]

I really don't think anyone would expect an FF MILC, perhaps Fuji style, to come with a gazillion lenses. A few of course, but essentially it takes the heat off having to have a big catalogue of them right out to XXX hundred mm. Pentax isn't Nikon or Canon and it's a bit of a fantasy to see them in the same park, imho. The more's the pity if it won't happen, although how anyone can be sure beats me. With a conventional FF DSLR, Pentax would be going big, really big, just as the future of mainstream cameras starts to look is if it lies in smaller but with more sophisticated software and perhaps new spins on sensors (non-Bayer, e.g.). Big, which increasingly means specialized and not mainstream, can stay with Canon or Nikon or Sony at a pinch or jump right into MF. I think we'd all be happier if folks gave up the fantasy that Ricoh + Pentax = Canon-slayer come Nikon terminator. Not a chance.

True Pentax isn't Canon or Nikon... Still they made a lot of pro's very happy with the 645D though. They were able to do that, including a nice lens lineup too. The fact that Pentax isn't Canon or Nikon expresses itself in them being resource-limited. They have to make concessions. It showed mostly in their survival method of the past years: More R&D budget? => Lower marketing budget.

So Pentax going FF, in whatever form, wouldn't be all that much of a miracle. It's just going to take more time, and they probably only started recently.

But we Pentaxians wouldn't even want Pentax to be a Canikon killer. We would seriously feel out of place, not being the black sheep anymore.

[Kunzite]

I really don't think anyone would expect an FF MILC, perhaps Fuji style, to come with a gazillion lenses. A few of course, but essentially it takes the heat off having to have a big catalogue of them right out to XXX hundred mm. Pentax isn't Nikon or Canon and it's a bit of a fantasy to see them in the same park, imho. The more's the pity if it won't happen, although how anyone can be sure beats me. With a conventional FF DSLR, Pentax would be going big, really big, just as the future of mainstream cameras starts to look is if it lies in smaller but with more sophisticated software and perhaps new spins on sensors (non-Bayer, e.g.). Big, which increasingly means specialized and not mainstream, can stay with Canon or Nikon or Sony at a pinch or jump right into MF. I think we'd all be happier if folks gave up the fantasy that Ricoh + Pentax = Canon-slayer come Nikon terminator. Not a chance.

I really don't think Pentax should go Fuji-style; they're way more ambitious than that. You're asking them to cut their ties with a higher margin market, forget about competing and instead go for some niche already occupied by other players... as I've said: it won't happen.

And a funny thing, everyone seems to see "the future" in a different way. You, as "smaller but with more sophisticated software" (MILCS). Others, encouraged by the new launches, as "full frame". Some thinks a new mount would solve everything, including problems they never had. Or that Pentax is doomed, and no matter what they're doing is way too late and they'll die anyway.
At least I'm concerned about the well being of those who actually are buying Pentax products - so long live the K-mount!

[Ron Boggs]

With brands starting to build stuff like the Q with smaller than APS-C sensors, there is a chance that as the mainstream adopts even smaller sensors, the FF game will become more exclusive. That would make those cameras with great APS-C platforms, and low prices more desireable.

But again, Pentax has NEVER been interested in market share...they use a very simple business model, "If we can sell x thousand of this camera at x profit margin then we can be profitable." They've pulled it off for 50 years and I'm guessing they will continue to pull it off.

If not and Pentax closes the doors, I'll keep my lenses and buy dirt cheap used K-5's for the rest of my life. All I care about is continuing to sell images to magazines and printing fine art images, neither of which has anything to do with sensor size. Sure, sensor size plays in theoretically when printing, but in the real world it's pretty much irrelevant--Perfect Resize makes billboards from 2 megapixels--and I've sold for exactly that use. Artists shooting digital in the pre FF days still made fine art prints and magazines still had images when sensors were mostly 6 megapixel APS-C. Never had a photo editor ask about pixels...they all live on dpi anyway.

[Kunzite]

But again, Pentax has NEVER been interested in market share...

Until now.
The old Pentax was cautious (but it's not like they didn't try to gain market share), Hoya only cared about margins. Those days are gone.

And don't worry, Pentax is nowhere near closing the doors. After all, the Mayan calendar marks next month the beginning of a new cycle, which will be known as "the Pentax Ricoh era".

[Clavius]

And don't worry, Pentax is nowhere near closing the doors.

Aside from the indications on the Mayan Calendar: why do you think Pentax is nowhere near closing the doors?

From all the "new" products they launched in September, they convinced me that they were showing the last "twitches" of a dying company.

My LBA has me itching to buy some more gear, but since September I've put all lens purchases on hold until Pentax shows some signs of survivability. Or untill they show the will to survive, at least.

So, if you know something that we don't, please feel free to elaborate.

[Cannikin]

Aside from the indications on the Mayan Calendar: why do you think Pentax is nowhere near closing the doors?

From all the "new" products they launched in September, they convinced me that they were showing the last "twitches" of a dying company.

My LBA has me itching to buy some more gear, but since September I've put all lens purchases on hold until Pentax shows some signs of survivability. Or untill they show the will to survive, at least.

So, if you know something that we don't, please feel free to elaborate.

3 lens roadmaps for one thing, with a total of 10 lenses and 1 teleconverter still to come (and all lenses they scheduled for 2012 have been released as promised).

[Kunzite]

@Clavius:
Uhh... because the lock is broken?

Are you telling us Ricoh bought Pentax, formed Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company and merged their own camera division into it just to let them die? Come on... one doesn't need inside info to know things are doing in the opposite direction of "closing the doors". It helps with being more confident, though... probably

What we saw at Photokina were the last "twitches" of the Hoya era; that's all they could do, in such a short time, without rushing out some incomplete products (which I'd say would be much, much worse than having solid yet not really "cutting edge" products like the K-5 IIs).
But even that is actually a good sign; they launched the new HD coating, the long lens Hoya cancelled, the TC Hoya cancelled, the only stabilized medium format solution... and of course, we have the lens-rich roadmaps (no delay, so far), we have public declarations, interviews more optimistic than anytime. Are those signs of a dying company? I don't think so.

By the way, what you're doing is starving Pentax from funds required to develop the new toys; you're not helping them at all