[Kunzite]

It's not a conclusion, it's my opinion / feeling:

There are very little Pentaxians that walk into a store, buy a DSLR and never have any gear related questions, no problems, no need to upgrade, etc... Most users are forced to find their answers online on internet fora like this. They cannot help but stumble upon loads of FF related threads. I haven't been able to find a Pentax related forum in which this particular poll wasn't promotod. So, there are very little Pentax users that are not knowledgable about the Pentax FF issue. And out of all those... only 3000 were interested enough to press "like". And out of all those that press "like", how many will actually buy it when it's finally here?

So that's why to me, 3000 likers feels like a very low number.

You wouldn't even bother to guesstimate the user sample? Are you afraid of the result, maybe?
By the way, if we assume a 7% FF share for DSLRs (based on bcnranking data) would also apply to our respondents, that is equivalent to over 42.000 Facebook-using forum-active Pentaxians which happened to know about that Spanish page.
I'd say it's not that easy to find those 42.000 Facebook-using forum active Pentaxians...

[Clavius]

It all comes down to sales, as long as Ricoh thinks they can't make money out of FF camera i don't see they will do it.
It will be quite an investment and therefore risk, it's not something you do over night...
Sony with all their money and marketing couldn't get FF off the ground and they did had a good camera with good lenses so that wasn't the problem. So i'm sure Pentax will think twice.

Exactly, that's why a petition of 3000 or even 43000 is hardly enough to move Pentax HQ towards FF developement. It's just too risky to try to conquer an already saturated market. The reason why Sony couldn't do it is that everybody who really wants or needs an FF DSLR, and can afford it, already has one. A new FF system entering the market has to be very very very unique to earn its own place on the market and pick up all the crumbs that are left by Canon and Nikon. Which groups are those crumbs? I can only think of a few:
1. People who can't afford current FF offerings.
2. People who don't like the SLR part of "FF DSLR".
3. People who want FF, claim to be able to afford it, but chose to go with the Pentax system anyway, and then complain about the lack of FF like madmen.
4. ?
5. ?

[Anvh]

4. pentax old timers from the film days which have a nice selection of FF lenses, but those will not be a main market. They can not just bring out a camera so you can use your older lenses, i can't see how they make such system porfitable. They also need to sell lenses for a healthy system.

[Kunzite]

How about not ignoring the normal people, e.g. Pentax APS-C users who are or will be ready to upgrade to a Pentax FF DSLR? I am one of them.

[Anvh]

Upgrade?

Anyway if you feel the need and if you started with pentax APS-C changes are high you own a few APS-C lenses and maybe some secondhand FF lenses.
You can't use APS-C lenses and the AOV of the FF lenses changes so you will need to invest in new lenses.
It's quite a small step to go for Nikon or Canon, and when we talk about upgrade, they atleast have a profesional support center.

If you want to stay with Pentax, it's time to save up for 645D

[Kunzite]

Yes, it could be seen as an upgrade (depending on everyone's needs and wants). For me, it would be an upgraded viewfinder.

Whatever lenses I have, some of them would go, some of them will get new usage, new ones would be added. I am a paying customer, which isn't looking for bargains.
And interestingly, it seems you really don't like the idea of Pentax having customers like me. Why would it be?

The 645D is way too expensive, quite specialized and I definitely don't need medium format quality. Besides, the idea that I should spend 5-digits $ if I want to stay with Pentax is absurd.

[gazonk]

The 645D is way too expensive, quite specialized and I definitely don't need medium format quality. Besides, the idea that I should spend 5-digits $ if I want to stay with Pentax is absurd.

Actually, I think you might be able to stay within four digits with the current offers

I wonder when the next model is due?

[Kunzite]

Unless I add few lenses.
I wonder that as well. Maybe the history will repeat itself, and they're developing it alongside a new high-end APS-C camera?

[markac]

It all comes down to sales, as long as Ricoh thinks they can't make money out of FF camera i don't see they will do it.
It will be quite an investment and therefore risk, it's not something you do over night...
Sony with all their money and marketing couldn't get FF off the ground and they did had a good camera with good lenses so that wasn't the problem. So i'm sure Pentax will think twice.

I'm afraid I find your argument a little bit dated. Sony may have got the formula wrong with the DSLR-A900 and the DSLR-850 but the SLT-A99V replacement has been rather more successful (much as I dislike SLT), so much so that there will likely be a FF NEX and other FF models before long. (SR4) Sony developed three new Full Frame sensors. 24, 32 and 36 Megapixel. | sonyalpharumors

With cheaper FF cameras becoming available from it's competitors, Pentax will feel it's premium APS-C market increasingly eroded. It might continue to sell well with it's cheaper models, but that's not where good profits are made. Therefore Pentax (and off course it's owner Ricoh) will have to respond. If Pentax attempts to bury it's head in the sand and believe FF will go away, it will do so at it's own peril. Anyway I'm sure wiser heads than mine at Pentax and Ricoh are already well aware of this.

It should be remembered that Pentax initially wanted to enter the DSLR market with an FF camera. It was only that substandard sensor (that only Contax attempted to market) and the lack of a cost effective FF alternative, that forced it (like other manufacturers) down the APS-C road in what at the time was considered a 'temporary' measure. Well cost effective FF sensors have arrive and whilst Pentax may have had a somewhat flourishing APS-C market in the interim, that's probably not a situation that will last forever.

[Anvh]

Yes, it could be seen as an upgrade (depending on everyone's needs and wants). For me, it would be an upgraded viewfinder.

Whatever lenses I have, some of them would go, some of them will get new usage, new ones would be added. I am a paying customer, which isn't looking for bargains.
And interestingly, it seems you really don't like the idea of Pentax having customers like me. Why would it be?

The 645D is way too expensive, quite specialized and I definitely don't need medium format quality. Besides, the idea that I should spend 5-digits $ if I want to stay with Pentax is absurd.

I'm not against such customers, why should i?

I just don't see pentax do it, they are a small company and they will spread themselve very thing when they add an FF line and if they want to profesionally support that there need to be more changes made. Before eveything is setup and you've a good enough line of FF lenses you will be 4, 5 years further. By that time how will the market then be?
So far when times goes on you see that products always become smaller and more capable, so is there even a future in FF?

[Anvh]

I'm afraid I find your argument a little bit dated. Sony may have got the formula wrong with the DSLR-A900 and the DSLR-850 but the SLT-A99V replacement has been rather more successful (much as I dislike SLT), so much so that there will likely be a FF NEX and other FF models before long. (SR4) Sony developed three new Full Frame sensors. 24, 32 and 36 Megapixel. | sonyalpharumors

With cheaper FF cameras becoming available from it's competitors, Pentax will feel it's premium APS-C market increasingly eroded. It might continue to sell well with it's cheaper models, but that's not where good profits are made. Therefore Pentax (and off course it's owner Ricoh) will have to respond. If Pentax attempts to bury it's head in the sand and believe FF will go away, it will do so at it's own peril. Anyway I'm sure wiser heads than mine at Pentax and Ricoh are already well aware of this.

It should be remembered that Pentax initially wanted to enter the DSLR market with an FF camera. It was only that substandard sensor (that only Contax attempted to market) and the lack of a cost effective FF alternative, that forced it (like other manufacturers) down the APS-C road in what at the time was considered a 'temporary' measure. Well cost effective FF sensors have arrive and whilst Pentax may have had a somewhat flourishing APS-C market in the interim, that's probably not a situation that will last forever.

Sadly we don't have any numbers but the cheaper FF models only have the sensor and nothing more to go on for.
And even that sensor is often not better in terms of quality, low-end FF vs high-end APS-C sensor is teh comparison here.

A lot of your comment say that there is a big profit on cheap FF camera's but i highly doubt that, they probably make the most money with the top and middle range FF camera's and the low-end is there to sell more FF lenses and get the profit from there most likely. So far Pentax has no FF line and so it will be hard to compete.
As for the NEX FF camera, good luck with corner sharpness, they even can not get them decent with their APS-C serries...

[Aristophanes]

Pentax FF will come but it's the price point that's the issue.

A $2,000 body and a slew of similarly expensive new FF glass is the barrier to volume sales.

Since the FF sensor and motherboard supporting electronics costs about as much as a K-500 total, there is no such thing as a "low-end" FF. All FF is immediately a very high-end product with just variable models in between.

FF will come when the sensors prices drop to where the original K-5 prices began. Over $1,000 body cameras will be FF (probably higher than US$1,200) and below that smaller sensors led by APS-C.

The bonus is you will eventually see $399 DSLR kits smaller and similarly featured as a K-50. That is how APS-C on the same k-mount (or Nikon, Canon, or Sony mounts) will compete with FF. Can you imagine taking the exact same photos as a K-5II in a body 1/4 the price? That's where consumers win.

And given that, will you be willing to spend 4x that for FF? And given that will you be willing to spend on that FF despite that fact 99% of your photos go onto Facebook or Flickr?

There is no getting around the pure economics of sensors that an FF version will be about 2.45x costlier than an APS-C version. APS-C files will be smaller and more in tune with the growing tablet era of computing power vs PC's which are non-existent in many markets.

People on this forum greatly over-exaggerate demand for camera systems over $1,000. for every FF sold here are something like 310 (non-smartphone) camera sold with smaller sensors. Price rules.

Here is the camera that Pentax needs to be concerned about:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-100d-rebel-sl1/14

This is where sub-FF is going,and even smaller in the DSLR form factor. My prediction is that Pentax will need to put out smaller DSLR's (*ist size, even smaller than the K-x...and shed grams doing so) and merge the K-5/50 line, all with full specs. Entry-levelfeature leave-outs will decline (as the Korean auto makers are doing and thereby slaughtering their Japanese competitors) and we will see a more homogenized base. Video will be a very important selling point as will touch screens.

[Anvh]

With low-end FF i meant low-end in the FF range of course.
The top of the range APS-C cameras have better features, build-quality and specifications.

If you compare the K5 mkii with nikon 600D, then the 600D has only the larger sensor going for it and viewfinder.
For the rest the K5 wins on a lot of points.

600D nice for the studio but for on the road i don't need to think twice.

[Aristophanes]

If you compare the K5 mkii with nikon 600D, then the 600D has only the larger sensor going for it and viewfinder.
For the rest the K5 wins on a lot of points.

The D600 has about 50 in production FF lenses made by Nikon. It has better tracking AF. I would argue slightly better metering. And the larger sensor confers more resolution, better DR, and at least 1 stop more ISO. Nikon has far superior flashes and overall flash system. Nikon has tethering and a host of other pro- and semi-pro add-ns.

The lens array Pentax would have to build, but it is the other areas here Pentax lags that require substantial improvements. Some are inimical to the sensor, but would still require Pentax engineers to match the competition. The whole Pentax flash system requires a considerable overhaul.

At least we take solace in the fact that both Pentax and Nikon do better than Sony does with Sony sensors!

[Anvh]

Like you say there is a lot more to improve, the camera is only 10% of the work.

Tracking was never pentax strong point so they should not focus on the sport photograph to be honest.
For the rest the new AF seems to work fine and the flash system can be improved of course but when you look at the gains. Surely they are nice but for studio photography hardly anyone use it and i've also heard complains about the creative system so it's not much green.

But to go back down to earth, do you think you can spot the difference in the images made with low tier FF compared to high tier APS-C?