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03-19-2012, 02:49 AM   #436
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mehlsack Quote
Would you please elaborate which feature pentax improved over their competitors?
Pentax brought 11 focusing points to MDSLR, horizon/titl/swivel feature to their SR, the Green button in fully manual mode, TAv mode, star tracking with O-GPS1. These are very nice features. Clearly, Pentax's products have many problems but the same is true with other companies as well.

03-19-2012, 03:12 AM   #437
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Not to mention superior build quality, superiour ergonomics, backwards compatibility, inbody shake reduction instead of in the lens, and the best bang-for-the-buck ratio.

If such a tiny company needs some extra time to issue a FF with such unique killer features, then so be it.
03-19-2012, 04:02 AM   #438
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
That's just a matter of opinion.
Of course. And I hope it turns out to be wrong actually

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Why is it so important to be the first?
First?

Are you kidding?

Who talks Pentax to become first? All we talk about is if Pentax can afford to be more than 10 years late to the party.

1Ds: Sep 24, 2002
D3: Aug 23, 2007

Obviously, Nikon could afford to be 5 years late (but Nikon sales suffered from 2002 to 2007) and what I said was that Pentax could have afforded to be 10 years late. But such a thing as "too late" does actually exist. I am only wondering when it is. In another 10 years, I see the market split into medium sensor mirrorless and full sensor (FF and larger) SLRs (basically as a studio and landscape tool). The 645D serves this well. But where does this leave the K mount?

Last edited by falconeye; 03-19-2012 at 04:09 AM.
03-19-2012, 04:19 AM   #439
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
In another 10 years, I see the market split into medium sensor mirrorless ... 645D serves this well. But where does this leave the K mount?
No idea, maybe at a loss, but life goes on. So do developments. Things still can be different.

But mirrorless medium would be heaven.
But that's for me.

And, if I have to drag heavy, than no ff, but mf.

03-19-2012, 04:27 AM   #440
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Who talks Pentax to become first? All we talk about is if Pentax can afford to be more than 10 years late to the party.
The person to whom I was reacting.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
In another 10 years, I see the market split into medium sensor mirrorless and full sensor (FF and larger)
Luckily, you don't have a crystal ball.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
SLRs (basically as a studio and landscape tool).
You mean SLRs as sports cameras maybe? Mirrorless is good for static subjects, the screens are so laggy that they're only really usable when doing tripodded work. But OK, maybe in 10 years time they will be almost as fast as mirrors. Almost of course, it's physics.

Back to the point of discussion. Pentax under Hoya would have never issued a FF camera. Pentax under Ricoh, is another story. And that is a VERY recent developement. A company simply can't design a whole new system in half a year. Surely, a company as small as Pentax can't in such short time. So I really don't understand what people are whining about, when they're saying they're dissapointed Pentax didn't announce a FF body last month. Heck, if they announce it at CP+ it would still be supernaturally-fast.

I would be surprised if Pentax Ricoh Imaging doesn't ditch the consumer-grade camera business and doesn't focus on pro/business-grade only. Remember that Ricoh normally only does business2business.

If they waited 10 years, and survived without a FF body, then they can just as well hold on for another year. Especially if that enables them to do it right at the first go.

Last edited by Clavius; 03-19-2012 at 04:36 AM.
03-19-2012, 05:12 AM   #441
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I would be surprised if Pentax Ricoh Imaging doesn't ditch the consumer-grade camera business and doesn't focus on pro/business-grade only. Remember that Ricoh normally only does business2business.
And all those consumer ricoh point and shoots? do you call that business to business??? you are talking about their big printer market there...in photography what brings tons of money at a low production cost is all that consumer grade market, that's why the production cycle of those almost use and throw away cameras is so short. Ricoh will continue to sell consumer grade cameras but might invest in the creation of a pro grade lineup of DSLRs if they see the economic viability and the margin to compete with the bigger companies (Canon,Nikon, and Sony). The key words are might, economic viability and profit margin. If they do not see those possible i'm sure they will continue the "niche" strategy of great features in apsc bodies at a reasonable price while aiming at the pro market from the MF with the 645d. The thing is that if they do not react that "niche" might start to dim till there's no viable market since the specialization isn't clear and big enough to keep the niche against the other major players, and in the MF market we still have to see how the modular system actors react to the heavy price cuts the 645 has introduced. Phase One, Mamiya-Leaf and to a minor degree Hasselblad will have to do something about their inmense prices (didn't count Leica since it's S2 is a minor player and Leica is in the verge of bankrupcy).
03-19-2012, 05:16 AM   #442
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Are there any qualified marketing people in the room because I'd like to hear from them!
03-19-2012, 05:34 AM   #443
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
And all those consumer ricoh point and shoots? do you call that business to business??? you are talking about their big printer market there...in photography what brings tons of money at a low production cost is all that consumer grade market, that's why the production cycle of those almost use and throw away cameras is so short. Ricoh will continue to sell consumer grade cameras but might invest in the creation of a pro grade lineup of DSLRs if they see the economic viability and the margin to compete with the bigger companies (Canon,Nikon, and Sony). The key words are might, economic viability and profit margin. If they do not see those possible i'm sure they will continue the "niche" strategy of great features in apsc bodies at a reasonable price while aiming at the pro market from the MF with the 645d. The thing is that if they do not react that "niche" might start to dim till there's no viable market since the specialization isn't clear and big enough to keep the niche against the other major players, and in the MF market we still have to see how the modular system actors react to the heavy price cuts the 645 has introduced. Phase One, Mamiya-Leaf and to a minor degree Hasselblad will have to do something about their inmense prices (didn't count Leica since it's S2 is a minor player and Leica is in the verge of bankrupcy).
Exactly... So why did Ricoh withdraw from the consumer grade printer / copier market? Because margin were tiny. They would have to sell full container loads of tiny inkjet printers to huge retailer, for only a tiny amount of profit... And that's exactly what's happening to the point&shoot market right now. Since everyone has a little point&shoot in their phone, the value of the already cheap P&S has dropped tremendously.

So why wouldn't Ricoh withdraw from the consumer grade camera market for exactly the same reason as for why they withdrew from the consumer grade printer market?

But again, back to the point of discussion. I seriously doubt that Ricoh will not pull Pentax into the more PRO market. Considering that Ricoh possibly gave the green light for FF developement soonest in Oktober 2010, a Pentax FF announcement at CP+ would be paranormally fast. So, still nothing to bitch about.


Last edited by Clavius; 03-19-2012 at 05:39 AM.
03-19-2012, 05:45 AM   #444
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The way the P&S market is headed everyone will eventually withdraw or start making smart phones I doubt Ricoh will abandoned the rest of the camera market though. the pro end of the market just isn't that big, and the MF end of it where Pentax has a Pro product is much smaller than it was in film days.
Ricoh has long made some very good niche P&S and that will likely continue as a smartphone doesn't replace that market (yet) Pentax has already shrunk their assortmet in the P&S market to unique items (and from a lens standpoint have supplied others for a while as well)
03-19-2012, 07:56 AM   #445
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Who talks Pentax to become first? All we talk about is if Pentax can afford to be more than 10 years late to the party.

1Ds: Sep 24, 2002
D3: Aug 23, 2007

Obviously, Nikon could afford to be 5 years late (but Nikon sales suffered from 2002 to 2007) and what I said was that Pentax could have afforded to be 10 years late. But such a thing as "too late" does actually exist. I am only wondering when it is. In another 10 years, I see the market split into medium sensor mirrorless and full sensor (FF and larger) SLRs (basically as a studio and landscape tool). The 645D serves this well. But where does this leave the K mount?
Well I think the next thing in sensor is an electronic shutter, so the currently shutter can get out of the camera. Improvement of AF on the sensor (or like Nikon did with 1 series) would also make the mirror obsolete.

About those more then 10 years:
photokina | Home

There are still a few days left on the calendar if they bring the puppy to Cologne.
03-19-2012, 09:30 AM   #446
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Since everyone has a little point&shoot in their phone
Got your point..you're right...i always forget mobile phones are omnipresent now and that they all got cameras.
I still believe there will be a market for entry level dslr's or low level mirrorless, people like having different gadgets and i'm not sure if the phones/pads etc will get to a level where people won't want a proper camera...but what you say about the P&S is true and that market will be eaten by phones/pads.
03-19-2012, 09:38 AM   #447
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Got your point..you're right...i always forget mobile phones are omnipresent now and that they all got cameras.
I still believe there will be a market for entry level dslr's or low level mirrorless, people like having different gadgets and i'm not sure if the phones/pads etc will get to a level where people won't want a proper camera...but what you say about the P&S is true and that market will be eaten by phones/pads.
if you look at flickr camera rankings that has pretty much already happened
# 1 ranked P&S is the S95 . it is beat in users by all 4 i phones (3,3g,4,4s) and barely beats the HTC EVO 4G in yesterdays daily users

I phone 4 is the top camera of any type. no P&S is even in the top 5

Admittedly Flickr is a little skewed as most users are more interested than average in photography.

Sadly even the top pentax is badly beat by the s95, and crushed by the iphones
03-19-2012, 10:02 AM   #448
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The numbers of smartphone users on Flikr is probably partly to do with direct upload from said smartphones
03-19-2012, 10:09 AM   #449
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caat Quote
The numbers of smartphone users on Flikr is probably partly to do with direct upload from said smartphones
I want that on my next camera (K-3 or FF).
03-19-2012, 10:45 AM - 1 Like   #450
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Are there any qualified marketing people in the room because I'd like to hear from them!
You're looking, instead, for qualified product development/product management people. I've done a bit of that but I'll stay out of this discussion. Signal to noise ratio is way too low.

I will make two comments, though:

1) As many have pointed out, Ricoh didn't spend USD $100M+ for Pentax because they had nothing else to do with it. Every company has a list of projects they'd like to do. It's a regular task to pare that list down to what can be done with the money at hand. People at Ricoh thought that this was a better investment than other opportunities, inside or outside the business.

2) As many have pointed out, Pentax is no cash cow. Ricoh didn't buy Pentax to continue to do business as "Pentax usual".

I cannot predict what the next five years will be like. But I will predict that they won't be like the last five years. We'll see whether we like the difference ...
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