Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
03-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #451
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I want that on my next camera (K-3 or FF).
An eyefi card can take care of that right now. Images can be uploaded via smartphone from the camera.

03-19-2012, 12:53 PM   #452
Pentaxian
Class A's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 8,940
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Why is it so important to be the first?
It is important to be first, or at least early enough, because you otherwise lose sales to other companies. This has been happening for Pentax for a while now and the recent D800, 5D3 introductions will most likely increase the rate at which Pentaxians defect to Canikon.

Furthermore, of course Pentax can still introduce an FF camera in four years time and they will sell copies, no doubt. But it won't be the head turner it would have been a year ago.

To clarify: I obviously wasn't talking about a first FF camera. I was talking about the first attractively priced (I referred to it as "affordable") FF camera with a convincing feature set.

Hitherto Canikon FF cameras have always been pretty huge things with a hefty - enormous price tag. Canikon sold these at high margins and often artificially crippled lower models in order to protect the "non plus ultra" status of their flagships.

Pentax could have entered the FF market with a very capable but not outrageously priced camera. It would have looked very well against the largish and very expensive Canikon offerings. Now that the D800 is out, this coup has become a lot harder. It is an awful lot of camera for the money and even if Pentax can produce something that will be competitive in terms of value for money, it won't be the head turner -- in the sense that even shooters from other brands would be tempted to buy an FF Pentax -- it would have been a year ago.

P.S.: Sony's A850 was the camera I'm talking about for Pentax. It wasn't a huge success but the reasons for this are manifold. I believe that a Pentax version of an A850 with a great sensor introduced last year would have been great publicity for Pentax and would have sold well.
03-19-2012, 01:14 PM   #453
Loyal Site Supporter
eddie1960's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 12,168
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
It is important to be first, or at least early enough, because you otherwise lose sales to other companies. This has been happening for Pentax for a while now and the recent D800, 5D3 introductions will most likely increase the rate at which Pentaxians defect to Canikon.

Furthermore, of course Pentax can still introduce an FF camera in four years time and they will sell copies, no doubt. But it won't be the head turner it would have been a year ago.

To clarify: I obviously wasn't talking about a first FF camera. I was talking about the first attractively priced (I referred to it as "affordable") FF camera with a convincing feature set.

Hitherto Canikon FF cameras have always been pretty huge things with a hefty - enormous price tag. Canikon sold these at high margins and often artificially crippled lower models in order to protect the "non plus ultra" status of their flagships.

Pentax could have entered the FF market with a very capable but not outrageously priced camera. It would have looked very well against the largish and very expensive Canikon offerings. Now that the D800 is out, this coup has become a lot harder. It is an awful lot of camera for the money and even if Pentax can produce something that will be competitive in terms of value for money, it won't be the head turner -- in the sense that even shooters from other brands would be tempted to buy an FF Pentax -- it would have been a year ago.

P.S.: Sony's A850 was the camera I'm talking about for Pentax. It wasn't a huge success but the reasons for this are manifold. I believe that a Pentax version of an A850 with a great sensor introduced last year would have been great publicity for Pentax and would have sold well.
exactly

like canikon sony also had a higher model to protect so they didn't aggressively pursue the a850. if Pentax launched a K5 level FF a year ago using the same sensor as the a850 even it would have done very well

A year ago though Pentax was a division of Hoya so not a hope in hell of it happening (or for that matter much chance of a newer model variant in the skunkworks for Ricoh)
03-19-2012, 04:16 PM   #454
Pentaxian
bossa's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4,538
Gone by 2017?

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
if you look at flickr camera rankings that has pretty much already happened
# 1 ranked P&S is the S95 . it is beat in users by all 4 i phones (3,3g,4,4s) and barely beats the HTC EVO 4G in yesterdays daily users

I phone 4 is the top camera of any type. no P&S is even in the top 5

Admittedly Flickr is a little skewed as most users are more interested than average in photography.

Sadly even the top Pentax is badly beat by the s95, and crushed by the iphones
I run 7.5kms 5 days a week and take my iPhone 4 with me due to the GPS and the Pedometer app I that use to measure my activities. That Pedometer app has a camera icon that allows me to snap a pic as I'm running at anytime and upload it on the spot if i want to. The output is surprisingly good and it's not even the latest 8mpx sensor (let alone 41mpx). Just look at journalists interviewing politicians on TV; 1/2 of them use their phone to record video, audio and photo's and probably upload the output directly to their company servers and/or flickr and Twitter. Within a few years I believe that the entire photographic industry will probably be scurrying for the protection that FF and smaller mirror-less MF offers becuase that's about all that will be left of the market for serious camera makers. If Pentax fails to access this market with a small K-5 sized FF camera within the next two years then they'll be gone in 5 years IMO. I am therefore predicting their demise by 2017 in that scenario.

03-19-2012, 05:25 PM   #455
Senior Member
trublubiker's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hunter Valley NSW AUSTRALIA
Posts: 144
QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote

I will make two comments, though:

1) As many have pointed out, Ricoh didn't spend USD $100M+ for Pentax because they had nothing else to do with it. Every company has a list of projects they'd like to do. It's a regular task to pare that list down to what can be done with the money at hand. People at Ricoh thought that this was a better investment than other opportunities, inside or outside the business.

2) As many have pointed out, Pentax is no cash cow. Ricoh didn't buy Pentax to continue to do business as "Pentax usual".

I cannot predict what the next five years will be like. But I will predict that they won't be like the last five years. We'll see whether we like the difference ...
Well said.

Large corporations make acquisitions based on perceived profitability. The emotional desires of a very small percentage of the market do not come into their calculations, although I do feel that the respect that Pentax has in the camera community at large had some bearing on their decision.

Ricoh has always been one of the 'other' camera makers, and acquiring Pentax may be seen as adding some more credibility to their product name.
03-19-2012, 06:12 PM   #456
Veteran Member
Coeurdechene's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: madrid
Photos: Albums
Posts: 833
QuoteOriginally posted by trublubiker Quote
and acquiring Pentax may be seen as adding some more credibility to their product name.
Lets just see what they do with it
The only trouble i see with the FF scenario, and that makes me dread that ricoh will follow other paths is the relative unsuccesfull venture from the giant Sony. They played hard, released capable and well priced pro-grade cameras with Zeiss backing them, putting their name on the prograde lenses and they didn't manage to pierce the pro market. They did get a decent portion of the entry and mid level market but the pro one stayed firmly in the hands of Canikon, and if the rumorology is to be trusted as a sign of confidence in the degree of strengh of their camera business, there are big doubts about it's comitment and future...
Even with agressive pricing and competition they are still percieved as an outsider, huge mistake not buying the Minolta name...
Ricoh is smaller than Sony and i'm not sure if they can pierce the pro market, in any case it would be a long term investment...that makes me wonder if they aren't thinking of something entirely different like their experiment with the gxr but in a bigger scale and with a more prestigious name. That would be a nice addition and could provide a true niche position: a modular apsc or FF dslr (now i'm rambling)...
Let's wait and see if they issue a roadmap in the next year (i definitely think ricoh should provide a hint to what are their intentions, that way it would be easier to keep advanced photogs and amateurs from leaving the brand).
03-19-2012, 06:15 PM   #457
Pentaxian
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,862
Google Translate

"[Nikon for D800] has received reservations far above expectations. The originally released quantity is not sufficient in order to deliver"

BTW, first photographers under NDA had the D800 by summer last year. Ricoh should have had time to prepare for its advent. Obviously, it doesn't interfere with their plans ... Let's hope it is a bit more ambitious than more colors
03-19-2012, 07:23 PM   #458
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
Reservations are far above expections for the D800...

And we know Nikon is making 30,000 D800 a month and 5,000 D4 per month:


Rob Galbraith DPI: Nikon reveals production goals for D4 and D800, cost of earthquake damage

"Nikon reveals production goals for D4 and D800, cost of earthquake damage
Tuesday, February 14, 2012 | by Eamon Hickey

Nikon's production target for the D4 is 5,000 units per month, and for the D800 it is 30,000 units per month, according to Jiro Saito, the President of Nikon's Sendai factory (technically, Sendai Nikon Corp.), which manufactures both cameras. Saito's remarks were reported on Bernama.com, the national news agency of Malaysia, which was one of several South Asian and Pacific region news organizations that were given a tour of the Sendai facility. (In 2007, we published our own report, which includes several Nikon-supplied photos, on a similar tour of the Sendai factory, which took place when the D3 and D300 were introduced.)"

03-19-2012, 07:55 PM   #459
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,501
If Pentax is to release an LX-D in 2013 (60th Anniversary of the Asahiflex May, 2012, LX = 60 in Roman Numerals) there should be bodies now, or very, very soon, in the hands of people under a NDA.

Speaking of the modular GxR, would the first dSLR with an interchangeable viewfinder system - and a FF sensor - turn enough heads to get attention? DO you imagine Pentax woulds start from Ground Zero developing a system in October, 2011 or is there some development work already done? Do you suppose developments for 645D and LX-D could be cross-amortized, as well as rolled down to enthusiast bodies in the next generation (like the 16Mp sensor and Ricoh CDAF technology in the K-01)? Is there a digital analog () to OTF metering available? Can Pentax extend an interchangeable VF to Video uses?

Canon used cash flow from imaging (photocopier patents) to finance a number of other ventures. Ricoh has a lot of cash flow and a lot of cash. If they want to develop the brand, Ricoh has a lot of room to do things that are different, useful and saleable under the Pentax brand and the resources to do them, especially when starting from a small base. Ricoh is not Sony (arrogant) - they subsumed their own brand to Pentax in the B2C business..
03-19-2012, 09:18 PM   #460
Pentaxian
bossa's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4,538
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If Pentax is to release an LX-D in 2013 (60th Anniversary of the Asahiflex May, 2012, LX = 60 in Roman Numerals) there should be bodies now, or very, very soon, in the hands of people under a NDA.

Speaking of the modular GxR, would the first dSLR with an interchangeable viewfinder system - and a FF sensor - turn enough heads to get attention? DO you imagine Pentax woulds start from Ground Zero developing a system in October, 2011 or is there some development work already done? Do you suppose developments for 645D and LX-D could be cross-amortized, as well as rolled down to enthusiast bodies in the next generation (like the 16Mp sensor and Ricoh CDAF technology in the K-01)? Is there a digital analog () to OTF metering available? Can Pentax extend an interchangeable VF to Video uses?

Canon used cash flow from imaging (photocopier patents) to finance a number of other ventures. Ricoh has a lot of cash flow and a lot of cash. If they want to develop the brand, Ricoh has a lot of room to do things that are different, useful and saleable under the Pentax brand and the resources to do them, especially when starting from a small base. Ricoh is not Sony (arrogant) - they subsumed their own brand to Pentax in the B2C business..
Agreed. It's much easier to change course f the boat is NOT the Queen Mary. Now is the perfect time to get the next generation FF up and running.

Whether you like it or not the GXR may well turn out to be the prototype. But all we really need right now is a 16 to 24mpx FF K-Mount/sensor module for that camera to get started. Surely that little thing can't be so hard?
03-20-2012, 09:07 AM   #461
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote


I don't want to sound too negative. So, let me say, theoretically, you're correct. It's just my gut feeling tells me otherwise.
Any manufacturer, including Pentax, can and will get into FF once the price to develop products drops enough to offer a competitive assortment if bodies, lenses, flashes, and accessories comprehensively.

The price of the Canikon products keeps them from being anywhere near as widespread as APS-C. The sub-FF market is probably 25x larger.

It has everything to do with price. Everything. It is price alone that is keeping Pentax on the sidelines because not enough market space exists for more than Canikon and maybe Sony. Maybe.
03-20-2012, 09:46 AM   #462
Pentaxian
Na Horuk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Slovenia, probably
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 10,332
But keep in mind WHY Canikon dominate the pro sector. They have pro service centers, a lot of places rent their equipment, most accessories (flashes, etc.) and third party products (like lenses, software) are made for their cameras, they rent their equipment at special events (like soccer matches) and they make sure all the pros using their cameras also have shirts, vests and hats with their brand name. Not to mention the marketing. That is why Sony didnt get into pro. Selling pro gear isn't just making top quality products, its a whole system. Just like even if you are a good singer you will never become as famous as some current pop stars without the backing of publishing houses, who take care everything from venues to outfits. I'm not sure Pentax even has that ambition. Maybe now with Ricoh in charge.. but that will still take a long while to produce anything.
03-20-2012, 12:26 PM   #463
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
But keep in mind WHY Canikon dominate the pro sector. They have pro service centers, a lot of places rent their equipment, most accessories (flashes, etc.) and third party products (like lenses, software) are made for their cameras, they rent their equipment at special events (like soccer matches) and they make sure all the pros using their cameras also have shirts, vests and hats with their brand name. Not to mention the marketing. That is why Sony didnt get into pro. Selling pro gear isn't just making top quality products, its a whole system. Just like even if you are a good singer you will never become as famous as some current pop stars without the backing of publishing houses, who take care everything from venues to outfits. I'm not sure Pentax even has that ambition. Maybe now with Ricoh in charge.. but that will still take a long while to produce anything.
Correct.

In order for Pentax to make a dent in FF they will have to put out a D800 clone, a pretty hefty chunk of FF lenses, new flash system, accessories, and so on, all while selling far less that 30,000 per month.

And they'll have to do so without a pro support network that subsidizes everyone else because the pro sector will pay for what it wants when it needs it at full price. There is no Pentax price offset like that.

Normally new entrants compete on price, but that's not possible with FF because Pentax does not control the supply of most of the inputs, especially the very high value sensor.
03-20-2012, 12:51 PM   #464
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
because Pentax does not control the supply of most of the inputs, especially the very high value sensor.
Who knows what kind of deals Ricoh can close with/via their suppliers?
03-20-2012, 01:45 PM   #465
Pentaxian
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,862
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Any manufacturer, including Pentax, can and will get into FF
AFAICS, not Olympus. They already missed that boat.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
dream, frame, full-frame, pentax, pentax full frame
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full frame pentax cem.kumuk Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 11-12-2010 03:13 PM
Pentax and Full Frame... Shutter-bug Photographic Technique 60 11-03-2010 10:03 AM
Pentax A 50/1.2 on Full Frame aegisphan Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 23 10-28-2010 04:16 PM
Full Frame Pentax a pipe dream? Athiril Pentax DSLR Discussion 5 08-18-2008 02:10 AM
My Dream of a K20D, crushed..... Mr Hyde Pentax DSLR Discussion 10 04-10-2008 02:13 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:18 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top