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04-12-2012, 06:32 AM   #676
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I was only suggesting that supplying lenses to other brands could be a way to build brand awareness. Obviously I have not thought it through but I still feel it may be a way for Pentax to move forward and gain a few cross-graders.

04-12-2012, 06:47 AM   #677
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
to abandon aps-c dslr makes sense to me. Why spend So much R and D for a dying segment of the market.
I'll ask again, and again, and again - as you always fail to respond: where is the proof?

bossa, I certainly understand that - I believe, however, that it would backfire. Badly.
Think about it, nobody would buy into Pentax for those lovely Limiteds, when they can get e.g. Nikon instead and get them. Besides, brand awareness as a 3rd-party lens maker? Degrading, for an OEM.
04-12-2012, 07:25 AM   #678
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I understand that to kill off a mount like K mount has its own price. But, beating a dead horse has its own set of consequences. This company is no better off financially if not worse compared to where they were five years ago, even with the success they had with 645d.

At this point in time, the best thing about this company is the optical quality of its lenses ( although no longer a bargain, however). They might as well exploit that. Establish themselves as the superior alternatives to Tamron/Sigma/Tokina for Canikon users, which is a gigantic user base. Spend that R and D on in-lense SR. Come up with lenses for m4/3. Then, Ricoh should come out with FF k mount adapter for GXR.
Kill K-mount, but come out with a FF K mount adapter?!? That's a serious contradiction right there.

And killing K-mount is equal to killing Pentax, because the backwards compatibily is one of Pentax's strong points.

I'm thinking exactly the other way round. Issue a modular mirrorless body. With interchangeable mount, so it can also mount the competitors glass. Make it FF and more affordable then Canikon and people will seriously consider moving to Pentax, even if they've already invested in Canikon. And especially if it finally gives their non-VR lenses SR.

Last edited by Clavius; 04-12-2012 at 07:33 AM.
04-12-2012, 07:35 AM   #679
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Kill K-mount, but come out with a FF K mount adapter?!? That's a serious contradiction right there.

I'm thinking exactly the other way round. Issue a modular mirrorless body. With interchangeable mount, so it can also mount the competitors glass. Make it FF and more affordable then Canikon and people will seriously consider moving to Pentax, even if they've already invested in Canikon. And especially if it finally gives their non-VR lenses SR.
Oh, sorry. What I meant was that Ricoh can develop a FF sensor -K module for their GXR to cater to customers with slew of K mount lenses.

04-12-2012, 07:46 AM   #680
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'll ask again, and again, and again - as you always fail to respond: where is the proof?
I don't remember you asking me again and again and again . . . .

At any rate, my point is based on a simple assumption that APS-C DSLR will die off eventually. I am making this silly assumption based on the fact that m4/3 has established itself more or less (do I need proof on that? I dunno), mirrorless are becoming ever so popular, and Canon and Nikon seem to be putting in a great deal of resources in the development of their FF models. Also, I would not be surprised if iPhone cam is the most popular device of choice when taking photographs. As these small cams get better in IQ, I think that cameras with APS-C and m4/3 size sensors will probably begin to suffer in terms of sales. So, what manufacturers may have to do is to go with larger sensors while keeping the price relatively speaking stable more or less.

Yes, all these are assumptions, but that is where the fun is, the speculation part of it. I may be wrong, and I don't mind being wrong, and in the end it makes no differences to me one way or another.
04-12-2012, 07:51 AM   #681
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I don't remember you asking me again and again and again . . . .

At any rate, my point is based on a simple assumption that APS-C DSLR will die off eventually. I am making this silly assumption based on the fact that m4/3 has established itself more or less (do I need proof on that? I dunno), mirrorless are becoming ever so popular, and Canon and Nikon seem to be putting in a great deal of resources in the development of their FF models. Also, I would not be surprised if iPhone cam is the most popular device of choice when taking photographs. As these small cams get better in IQ, I think that cameras with APS-C and m4/3 size sensors will probably begin to suffer in terms of sales. So, what manufacturers may have to do is to go with larger sensors while keeping the price relatively speaking stable more or less.

Yes, all these are assumptions, but that is where the fun is, the speculation part of it. I may be wrong, and I don't mind being wrong, and in the end it makes no differences to me one way or another.

The death of all but the specialist P&S is pretty much already there thanks to camera phones. Sure they still sell but cellphones units account for more cameras than the entire photographic industry now would be my guess.
there is a rumoured response coming from Pentax in a web enabled ILC (my guess is a new variant on the Q system) which sounds pretty cool


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/182126-nikkei-ricoh-pe...lc-camera.html
04-12-2012, 08:16 AM   #682
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
The death of all but the specialist P&S is pretty much already there thanks to camera phones. Sure they still sell but cellphones units account for more cameras than the entire photographic industry now would be my guess.
there is a rumoured response coming from Pentax in a web enabled ILC (my guess is a new variant on the Q system) which sounds pretty cool


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/182126-nikkei-ricoh-pe...lc-camera.html
The "Most Popular Cameras in the Flickr Community" according to Flickr's stats:

Apple iPhone 4
Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Nikon D90
Canon EOS REBEL T2i
Canon EOS 7D

What's interesting to me is the one in at #2. However, I'm not sure if these stats are total rather than average uploads, thus balancing out cameras that appear more popular than they are simply because they have been around for a long time. Even so, the #1 and #2 spots are not ones many would have predicted a few years ago.
04-12-2012, 08:33 AM   #683
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
At any rate, my point is based on a simple assumption that APS-C DSLR will die off eventually.
Not a chance. Not even close.

APS-C DSLR's have outsold pretty much all SLR's combined in the history of photography, and sales are still increasing. The NEX system is APS-C and is mirrorless and same for our very own K-01.

m43 is hardly a whisper of the same sell-through.

If phonecams become the dominant snapshot camera, then those who want better quality photographs will look at sensor size first, because that is by far the best determinant of superior IQ. APS-C delivers the largest sensor at the lowest relative price by a country mile over anything else on the market.

The history of the camera market has been one of households owning multiple cameras, not one. If most household residents have a celphone camera and the household also has a quality-oriented camera, odds are they'll look at larger sensors to differentiate. If FF comes down in price (as it eventually will) then APS-C will go further down the price ladder and push the smaller m43 into a problem area.

Last week I went into 2 camera retailers and I have to say that the m43 offerings were pretty marginalized in the display arrangement. They did not look like products poised to outsell the far more visible APS-C products.


Last edited by Aristophanes; 04-12-2012 at 11:49 AM.
04-12-2012, 08:39 AM   #684
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I don't remember you asking me again and again and again . . . .

At any rate, my point is based on a simple assumption that APS-C DSLR will die off eventually.
"You" as in "people who are saying APS-C DSLRs are dying". And you (personally) claimed it's happening, now ("a dying segment of the market") - where is the proof?
Only now you admit it's actually a baseless assumption.
04-12-2012, 10:00 AM   #685
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not a chance. Not even close.

APS-C DSLR's have outsold pretty much all SLR's combined in the history of photography, and sales are still increasing. The NEX system in APS-C and is mirrorless and same for our very own K-01.

m43 is hardly a whisper of the same sell-through.

If phonecams become the dominant snapshot camera, then those who want better quality photographs will look at sensor size first, because that is by far the best determinant of superior IQ. APS-C delivers the largest sensor at the lowest relative price by a country mile over anything else on the market.

The history of the camera market has been one of households owning multiple cameras, not one. If most household residents have a celphone camera and the household also has a quality-oriented camera, odds are they'll look at larger sensors to differentiate. If FF comes down in price (as it eventually will) then APS-C will go further down the price ladder and push the smaller m43 into a problem area.

Last week I went into 2 camera retailers and I have to say that the m43 offerings were pretty marginalized in the display arrangement. They did not look like products poised to outsell the far more visible APS-C products.

I know that some people have a great deal of fondness for the micro-4/3rds cameras, but when I (actually Mrs. ElJamoquio) looked at them, they were too big to put into a pocket, just as expensive as a k-r, with less image quality, more focus problems, much worse ergonomics, poor low-and-high iso noise, and fun extra-unexplained-red-spots whenever you tried to take a picture of a sunset.

The noise probIem can be fixed... as can (probably has already) the red dots... but I guess I'm agreeing that M-4/3rds could have a problem before APS-C does.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 04-12-2012 at 10:09 AM.
04-12-2012, 10:03 AM   #686
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04-12-2012, 10:18 AM   #687
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I know that some people have a great deal of fondness for the micro-4/3rds cameras, but when I (actually Mrs. ElJamoquio) looked at them, they were too big to put into a pocket, just as expensive as a k-r, with less image quality, more focus problems, much worse ergonomics, poor low-and-high iso noise, and fun extra-unexplained-red-spots whenever you tried to take a picture of a sunset.

The noise probIem can be fixed... as can (probably has already) the red dots... but I guess I'm agreeing that M-4/3rds could have a problem before APS-C does.

I had to laugh out loud when you were explaining your M-4/3rds shopping experience. At least you know who's boss.

I think both M-4/3 and APS-C will be around. My guess is the camera industry will still base itself on a 3-tier category of Good/Better/Best. Camera phones will take the place of the point and shoot, the 4/3rds and APS-C filling the middle ground of better image quality, portability and simplicity, and the Full-Frame offering the traditional DSLR bodies for the most serious photographers looking for the best image quality and manual settings for optimum customization.

I know, I know....Medium-Format is the apple pie Mom used to make on a pretty Sunday afternoon in late October, but if I had to make a guess today at where I ultimately see the digital camera industry in the next few years, that would be my first choice.
04-12-2012, 10:42 AM   #688
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The "Most Popular Cameras in the Flickr Community" according to Flickr's stats:

Apple iPhone 4
Canon EOS 5D Mark II
Nikon D90
Canon EOS REBEL T2i
Canon EOS 7D

What's interesting to me is the one in at #2. However, I'm not sure if these stats are total rather than average uploads, thus balancing out cameras that appear more popular than they are simply because they have been around for a long time. Even so, the #1 and #2 spots are not ones many would have predicted a few years ago.
Yep! Nr 2 is the most interesting here and is evidence of the strong used market people buy in to.
The sale statistics of new cameras can no longer be the reason to think: "should we make a fullframe based upon how much Canikon sell?"

People say the FF market is so tiny it doesnt matter, but its not.. its growing fast and it wont show up in statistics no matter what they say. The stats consist of what was sold last year or this years end. How many of those FF buyers 2005-2010 uppgraded? How many used FF bodys are running about?

I know 10 amateur photographers on a personal basis, 4 of them bought used FF bodys 2012. Another 2 is seriously thinking 5D2 or D700. Im the only one with Pentax though

Doomsday is near!
04-12-2012, 10:56 AM   #689
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"You" as in "people who are saying APS-C DSLRs are dying". And you (personally) claimed it's happening, now ("a dying segment of the market") - where is the proof?
Only now you admit it's actually a baseless assumption.
Wow, you are really getting upset over this.
04-12-2012, 11:21 AM   #690
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not a chance. Not even close.

APS-C DSLR's have outsold pretty much all SLR's combined in the history of photography, and sales are still increasing. The NEX system in APS-C and is mirrorless and same for our very own K-01.

.
But NEX is not DSLR, nor are the new Fujis. APS-C is going to probably become the domain of advanced-mirrorless, in which, because of the register distance, native K-mount will have a hard time playing.
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