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04-28-2012, 06:38 PM   #886
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I think there is an important difference there. Pentax is part of Ricoh where Nikon is a self-contained company in the Mitsubishi group. I doubt that the Mitsubishi board have much to do with the running of Nikon while I'm fairly sure that Ricoh board will have a large hand in what Pentax does. Budget for Pentax will be decided by Ricoh and if the board feel more is need it will be allocated. If Nikon need more money where does it come from, and by what arrangement?

04-29-2012, 10:54 AM - 1 Like   #887
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul Ewins Quote
I think there is an important difference there. Pentax is part of Ricoh where Nikon is a self-contained company in the Mitsubishi group. I doubt that the Mitsubishi board have much to do with the running of Nikon while I'm fairly sure that Ricoh board will have a large hand in what Pentax does. Budget for Pentax will be decided by Ricoh and if the board feel more is need it will be allocated. If Nikon need more money where does it come from, and by what arrangement?
japanese business arrangements are nothing like the western model we all think in
See
Keiretsu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nikon is part of the Mitsubishi Keiretsu,

Ricoh and Canon are both part of the Fuyo keiretsu, but Ricoh is also a member of the Tokai (Toyota) keiretsu

they are essentially loose alliances where support is directed within the group (sort of a modern feudal societal structure as I understand it)

Pentax OTOH is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ricoh.

When all is said and done it means Pentax is far more likely to see serious investment from Ricoh than Nikon is from Mitsubishi group (which is where they would obtain financing for instance)
04-29-2012, 11:32 AM   #888
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
When all is said and done it means Pentax is far more likely to see serious investment from Ricoh than Nikon is from Mitsubishi group (which is where they would obtain financing for instance)
Now, that's an understatement!
04-29-2012, 03:37 PM   #889
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Thanks, Eddie. It seems this needs to be posted again and again. You've put it well. +1

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
japanese business arrangements are nothing like the western model we all think in
See
Keiretsu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nikon is part of the Mitsubishi Keiretsu,

Ricoh and Canon are both part of the Fuyo keiretsu, but Ricoh is also a member of the Tokai (Toyota) keiretsu

they are essentially loose alliances where support is directed within the group (sort of a modern feudal societal structure as I understand it)

Pentax OTOH is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ricoh.

When all is said and done it means Pentax is far more likely to see serious investment from Ricoh than Nikon is from Mitsubishi group (which is where they would obtain financing for instance)


04-29-2012, 07:26 PM   #890
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
will be.
And when?
04-29-2012, 11:22 PM - 2 Likes   #891
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
No problem with the relationship. It is conclusion people make form it that is misleading. Eg saying an 300/4 on FF is equivalent to a 200/2.8 on APS as the DOF wide open is identical is perhaps correct but irelevant for 99.99% of the cases. The shallow DOF when shooting eg. wildlife or even landscape is a problem, not a solution. However, the shutterspeed used at F:2.8 is a solution for most an not a problem. Hence, for most long lens shooters a 300/2.8 is the real life photography equivalent of a 200/2.8 on APS. The difference in image quality is the tradeoff you get from choosing APS. The cost and size + extra DOF at the same exposure is the benefit.

If you're in a situation where you're shutter-speed constrained - i.e. worried about exposure, getting adequate shutter speed when you want the same DOF you would have had on aps-c - simply bump ISO in the FF shot one stop. It has the headroom over aps-c, and you won't be seeing any more noise.

In most telephoto cases - besides indoor concert shooting and the like - you are not usually that shutter-speed constrained, and have the freedom to choose your aperture to control DOF the way you like. At in many cases, the lenses available will not allow you on aps-c to match the DOF options you have on FF. And no, I'm not talking about the extremely rare f/22 and smaller cases you like to use...

QuoteQuote:
Thin DOF as holy cow is totally irrelevant as 99,999% of all images do not display DOF thinner than what is possible with APS (in fact I've never seen such images in any books, magazines or art galleries). In addition, no one here can tell whether a picture is shot with APS or FF with regard to DOF; we have seen that in other threads.
Using a specialized usage as normative is totally misleading...
It's not 'specialized usage', it's day-to-day usage. A 50mm shot at f/2.8 on FF gives you what a 33mm lens shot at f/1.8 on aps-c would in FOV/DOF, while being sharper than (probably) any 35mm lens out there at f/1.8. That same 50mm at f/4, probably it's highest-resolving aperture, gives you a 33mm at f/2.5, still nice for subject isolation while having blistering sharpness on the focal plane. And if you do want something more extreme, shoot a 50 1.4 or 1.8 wide-open - better-corrected than any f/1.2 or f/1.0 lens out there wide-open.

My 180 f/2.8 wide-open on FF gives me what a 120mm f/1.8 would on aps-c - they don't make one of those, although there are Pentaxians out there willing to pay a pretty penny for the A* 135 f/1.8. I hate to say it, but I'm pretty certain my 180 wide-open is going to show more sharpness and less CA than that $$$ 135 1.8 wide-open.

Here's a few from that combo from a few hours ago:

180mm @ f/2.8










04-29-2012, 11:34 PM   #892
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
If you're in a situation where you're shutter-speed constrained - i.e. worried about exposure, getting adequate shutter speed when you want the same DOF you would have had on aps-c - simply bump ISO in the FF shot one stop. It has the headroom over aps-c, and you won't be seeing any more noise.
You missed one point, though: A 300mm f/4 is usually longer and heavier than a 200mm f/2.8, so APS-C could still be the best choice for a nature photographer worried about backpack weight. Now, with the recent 24-36mp sensors, this difference may diminish, too, because you could simply use a 200mm on a FF body and crop - but then on APS-C you could use a 24mp sensor and crop to 400-600mm equivalent and still have the lead...
04-30-2012, 12:20 AM   #893
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
You missed one point, though: A 300mm f/4 is usually longer and heavier than a 200mm f/2.8, so APS-C could still be the best choice for a nature photographer worried about backpack weight.
Right, but I don't think Pal was talking about that, he was talking about having to use a slower shutter speed at f/4 than f/2.8, making them 'not equivalent.' But in fact, that's covered by the idea of equivalence - as I was getting at, "simply bump ISO one stop if that's an issue - it won't be any noisier on FF, and you'll have the same FOV, DOF and shutter speed as aps-c - if that's what you want." You can't always go the other way with aps-c.

With regard simply to size of telephoto lenses - yes, with the older pixel pitch sensors, aps-c had a practical usage advantage there (as I've always said, the FF 'advantage' starts to go away around 300mm. Not so much with the D800's cropability now though.)

.

04-30-2012, 12:48 AM   #894
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Right, but I don't think Pal was talking about that,
I should have written "you both missed one point"

QuoteQuote:
With regard simply to size of telephoto lenses - yes, with the older pixel pitch sensors, aps-c had a practical usage advantage there (as I've always said, the FF 'advantage' starts to go away around 300mm. Not so much with the D800's cropability now though.)
If Pentax releases a (at least) 24mp FF Pentax that

- has roughly equivalent high ISO performance of the K-5 when cropped to APS-C
- is not much larger than the K-5
- has a nice user interface for using lenses that need a crop
... and comes with some compact new lenses

- I'm sold and will upgrade directly from K10D to K-FF

- because such a camera will actually deliver better images from the compact 55-300 lens than my K10D currently does, and that's my longest lens, so the APS-C-advantage-with-long-lenses argument isn't very important to me anyway.

The only sad thing would be that I would wonder what to do with my all time favorite lens - the DA 35 Macro Ltd...
04-30-2012, 12:59 AM   #895
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
It's not 'specialized usage', it's day-to-day usage.

180mm @ f/2.8
I shoot wide-open all the time, I wouldn't call thin DOF special usage either. It's late, though, so I'm probably misunderstanding everyone's arguments.

Also, I really love that first picture. Second one is also pretty priceless, and good for a chuckle especially after seeing the previous photo
04-30-2012, 03:30 PM   #896
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You know, the neat thing about this whole string, from beginning to end, is that if anyone in Pentax or elsewhere wanted to know what us folks would like in a FF, they have it right here! They could probably do surveys on the most popular stuff and come out way ahead on the competition's offerings (whoever that competition might be)!

Of course, they would need to be "listening" to what we say here!


....hello! Is any body OUT there???

Regards,
04-30-2012, 09:04 PM   #897
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Now Canon rumored to be coming up with entry level or lowered priced FF. Sorry no translation . . .

???????????????????????? - ????info
04-30-2012, 09:15 PM   #898
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
Now Canon rumored to be coming up with entry level or lowered priced FF. Sorry no translation . . .

???????????????????????? - ????info
Google Chrome translated it for me when I followed the link, here is the translation:

QuoteQuote:
To Canon Rumors, rumors about the two models of Canon's full-size machine has been posted.

- More Full Frame Cameras on the 2,012 Horizon?

Talked to a while ago, that might be announced during this year the new full-size entry-level Canon camera. Have heard the story again specs of this camera has not been obtained, that any effort to release before Christmas of 2012 Canon camera like this. Also received information that two other (which is also likely in 2013) that appeared in 2012 full-size machine entry, that there is a possibility to appear more full-size machine. One has to guess the advent of more high-resolution machine. I have heard has been performed testing of different types of sensor 5. Potential of both the camera (pixel size and high full-featured full-size machine entry) will be commercialized actually is quite high.

Assuming that this rumor is fact, Canon's full-size machine, it is going to be a powerful lineup of entry-level model and high-resolution machine was placed, the machine for the professional in the center of the 5D Mark III all-purpose machine. Entry model, the model to replace the current position of the 5D Mark II, or high-resolution machine will not be 3D (?) Of the rumor.
It's still pretty hard to understand, though..
04-30-2012, 09:18 PM   #899
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
Now Canon rumored to be coming up with entry level or lowered priced FF. Sorry no translation . . .

???????????????????????? - ????info
No need for a translation. There's a source link right at the top of that post: Canon Rumors
04-30-2012, 10:46 PM   #900
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I'm worn out with trying to keep up with all these rumors. Hell! I'm even worn out trying to keep up with all the predictions and pseudo analysis going on in these forums. I wish Pentax would just put us all out of our misery before Nikon and Canon does 'cos I'm getting really close to selling up and going with a P&S just to get some relief...
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