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02-18-2012, 03:23 PM - 5 Likes   #106
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Its always interesting reading FF wish @ Pentaxforums
I work in a camera shop in Germany and February is a damn boring cam selling month. Thatís why I decided to play with a D700 and 5d mk ii with some nice primes, L and Nano lenses. I was also comparing them to APS-C cams like D7000 and 7D.

What I can say right away is. Yes the pure image quality on modern APS-C is stunning. More than what I need @ 90% of the my time (Iam just a motivated hobby shooter). But in comparison with a FF, the IQ of a FF is breathtaking. We donít have Hasselblads, but I bet it will be even much more better than a FF.

But also these Cams are heavier (not nice for those who do traveling with some lenes). I really loved the D700, but damn this is a big bulky and heavy cam! I would use it in Studios if I had one ;-). The 5D is nice, but Canon control sucks comparing it to a Nikon and Pentax. Nikon has a very similar user button setup like a Pentax.
Itís not like you are selling a FF the whole day. What the Mass want is small user Friendly Better IQ bodys like D5100, 1100D, 600D etc. They buy 2,3 lenses at some later point and thatís it. Itís them who keeps the SLR business running and not the FF users.

Letís be honest who of us is going into a shop and drops 5K for IQ. Some of us have also a house, car and a family to finance!

I also discussed this topic with my brother who works in a pro SLR shop. They have like everything D3x, 1Ds and stuff. But fact is they also make their money with the cheap stuff.
The pro who make money with their images or the ones who want pro images already went to NIKON of Canon. Thatís true according to my opinion.
Colleges can't understand why Iam using a Pentax, but theyíre still speechless showing them Pentax images from me. Most of the young people also donít know that there is brand like Pentax. Sad actually!
Business is tough. Olympus is also having problems. They had their mighty E-5 and now they are producing micro 4/3 probably to survive.

I think Canon and Nikon make FF cause they have lots of reserves. Volkswagen also owns Bugatti, not like its profitable, but Fxxk they have the money.
I think anyone who knows the FF capabilities and the cost for this IQ should buy Canikon. Also cause they have the widest upgrades for their bodys. And not wait for a company to bring out a lens or something.

A decision everybody has to make for themselves (me too! Still!) But like I said APS-C is great too!

I would thank Pentax if they made a FF SLR, but Iam not going to blame them for not making one or annoying them all the time.

02-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by PŚl Jensen Quote
There is no slide. Pentax have never had 10% marketshare in the digital age. They currently have the larger markedshare ever at about 7%.
The BCN numbers have K-mount at less than 5% market share, and Japan is actually one of Pentax's better markets. Pretty sure they are not doing better than that here in the states. Zeiss & Voigtlander did not stop supporting K-mount because of increasing market share. I think it was Voigtlander that cited declining market for K-mount for its reason to discontinue support.

Do you have a source for 7% market share?
02-18-2012, 05:26 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Do you have a source for 7% market share?

The BCN numbers for last year. Posted here not that long ago...
The 5% is when mirrorless is included in the data; they are not DSLR's...
02-19-2012, 03:29 AM - 1 Like   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by mathan Quote
Its always interesting reading FF wish @ Pentaxforums
I work in a camera shop in Germany and February is a damn boring cam selling month. Thatís why I decided to play with a D700 and 5d mk ii with some nice primes, L and Nano lenses. I was also comparing them to APS-C cams like D7000 and 7D.

What I can say right away is. Yes the pure image quality on modern APS-C is stunning. More than what I need @ 90% of the my time (Iam just a motivated hobby shooter). But in comparison with a FF, the IQ of a FF is breathtaking. We donít have Hasselblads, but I bet it will be even much more better than a FF.

But also these Cams are heavier (not nice for those who do traveling with some lenes). I really loved the D700, but damn this is a big bulky and heavy cam! I would use it in Studios if I had one ;-). The 5D is nice, but Canon control sucks comparing it to a Nikon and Pentax. Nikon has a very similar user button setup like a Pentax.
Itís not like you are selling a FF the whole day. What the Mass want is small user Friendly Better IQ bodys like D5100, 1100D, 600D etc. They buy 2,3 lenses at some later point and thatís it. Itís them who keeps the SLR business running and not the FF users.

Letís be honest who of us is going into a shop and drops 5K for IQ. Some of us have also a house, car and a family to finance!

I also discussed this topic with my brother who works in a pro SLR shop. They have like everything D3x, 1Ds and stuff. But fact is they also make their money with the cheap stuff.
The pro who make money with their images or the ones who want pro images already went to NIKON of Canon. Thatís true according to my opinion.
Colleges can't understand why Iam using a Pentax, but theyíre still speechless showing them Pentax images from me. Most of the young people also donít know that there is brand like Pentax. Sad actually!
Business is tough. Olympus is also having problems. They had their mighty E-5 and now they are producing micro 4/3 probably to survive.

I think Canon and Nikon make FF cause they have lots of reserves. Volkswagen also owns Bugatti, not like its profitable, but Fxxk they have the money.
I think anyone who knows the FF capabilities and the cost for this IQ should buy Canikon. Also cause they have the widest upgrades for their bodys. And not wait for a company to bring out a lens or something.

A decision everybody has to make for themselves (me too! Still!) But like I said APS-C is great too!

I would thank Pentax if they made a FF SLR, but Iam not going to blame them for not making one or annoying them all the time.
Excellent post. Thank you.

02-19-2012, 06:11 AM   #110
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I just don't get it, the Pentax user base have been buying APS-C cameras for ten years or so now, & still keep asking for their mythical FF.

After all these year's, why are they still here using & buying APS-C's, I'm confused.

Last edited by wwwmorrell; 02-19-2012 at 08:24 AM.
02-19-2012, 06:38 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by wwwmorrell Quote
why are they stll here using & buying APS-C's, I'm confused
its every year different persons, for example: if Pentax wont release FF this year you wont see me again on this forum next year.....
02-19-2012, 08:27 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by filorp Quote
its every year different persons, for example: if Pentax wont release FF this year you wont see me again on this forum next year.....
Same question, why did you buy an APS-C when there are other brand F/Frames out there.
02-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by wwwmorrell Quote
Same question, why did you buy an APS-C when there are other brand F/Frames out there.
I expect you might find people are looking for an upgrade path to FF from APS-c.

When I bought into Pentax Digital, it was with a K10D. Back then there was only the 5D as a FF that was close to affordable.

Then I watched as Sony, Nikon, and Canon all released newer FF cameras that started to bring in price points I could consider.

I'm not going to go to a FF body until the price (either used or new) hits a point I can justify. But until then, I am building a lens collection that will work with my future FF camera. I'm expecting this to be a D700.

If Pentax had FF lenses, and was expected to bring out a FF camera, I might have considered to stay with Pentax. As it is, I'm shooting Nikon 90% of the time (I still have the K10D), and I doubt I will spend any money on new Pentax lenses.

I have been following this forum for a number of years now. I have seen many people leave for FF systems. I can't think I have seen anyone come back to APS-c after having made the jump to FF.

02-19-2012, 12:29 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by PŚl Jensen Quote
The BCN numbers for last year. Posted here not that long ago...
The 5% is when mirrorless is included in the data; they are not DSLR's...
I agree that Pentax looks better if you eliminate mirror-less from the numbers. If we eliminate more of the competitors from the numbers Pentax looks even better.

Mirror-less is competing for a large percentage of the same customers as Pentax and the K-r and the new K-01. Mirror-less is going to continue to grow and gain more market share of interchangeable lens camera market of which DSLR is a sub-group. Cameras like the Olympus E-M5, Fuji X Pro-1, & Panasonic GH-2 are competing for a lot of the same $$$ that DSLRs are going after. Pentax is probably more vulnerable to losing market share to EVIL because one of the main selling points of the K-mount has been small size and compact lenses. This is the exact market that EVIL is going after.

When you look at sales of ILCs as a whole Pentax has been sliding. You are correct in that by eliminating the fastest growing segment of ILCs from the equations Pentax looks slightly better.

If Pentax was actually growing we would be seeing an increase in 3rd party support. Its not happening. Pentax is losing the support from 3rd party suppliers. Voigtlander has announced two $1,000.00+ lenses form M4/3 in the past year. How many have we seen for Pentax?

Give me something tangible that you can point to and say "look Pentax is growing". 3rd Party market support is a very strong indicator. Pentax does not even have a booth at the WPPI this year. Even Kodak will have a booth. Pentax is the only missing camera company, unless you count Casio. Trade show presence is not a major indicator, but if Pentax is not interested in raising brand awareness among wedding and portrait photographers, who are they interested in?
02-19-2012, 12:33 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by mathan Quote
Its always interesting reading FF wish @ Pentaxforums
I work in a camera shop in Germany and February is a damn boring cam selling month. That’s why I decided to play with a D700 and 5d mk ii with some nice primes, L and Nano lenses. I was also comparing them to APS-C cams like D7000 and 7D.

What I can say right away is. Yes the pure image quality on modern APS-C is stunning. More than what I need @ 90% of the my time (Iam just a motivated hobby shooter). But in comparison with a FF, the IQ of a FF is breathtaking. We don’t have Hasselblads, but I bet it will be even much more better than a FF.

But also these Cams are heavier (not nice for those who do traveling with some lenes). I really loved the D700, but damn this is a big bulky and heavy cam! I would use it in Studios if I had one ;-). The 5D is nice, but Canon control sucks comparing it to a Nikon and Pentax. Nikon has a very similar user button setup like a Pentax.
It’s not like you are selling a FF the whole day. What the Mass want is small user Friendly Better IQ bodys like D5100, 1100D, 600D etc. They buy 2,3 lenses at some later point and that’s it. It’s them who keeps the SLR business running and not the FF users.

Let’s be honest who of us is going into a shop and drops 5K for IQ. Some of us have also a house, car and a family to finance!

I also discussed this topic with my brother who works in a pro SLR shop. They have like everything D3x, 1Ds and stuff. But fact is they also make their money with the cheap stuff.
The pro who make money with their images or the ones who want pro images already went to NIKON of Canon. That’s true according to my opinion.
Colleges can't understand why Iam using a Pentax, but they’re still speechless showing them Pentax images from me. Most of the young people also don’t know that there is brand like Pentax. Sad actually!
Business is tough. Olympus is also having problems. They had their mighty E-5 and now they are producing micro 4/3 probably to survive.

I think Canon and Nikon make FF cause they have lots of reserves. Volkswagen also owns Bugatti, not like its profitable, but Fxxk they have the money.
I think anyone who knows the FF capabilities and the cost for this IQ should buy Canikon. Also cause they have the widest upgrades for their bodys. And not wait for a company to bring out a lens or something.

A decision everybody has to make for themselves (me too! Still!) But like I said APS-C is great too!

I would thank Pentax if they made a FF SLR, but Iam not going to blame them for not making one or annoying them all the time.
Excellent post!
02-19-2012, 01:30 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
I expect you might find people are looking for an upgrade path to FF from APS-c.

When I bought into Pentax Digital, it was with a K10D. Back then there was only the 5D as a FF that was close to affordable.

Then I watched as Sony, Nikon, and Canon all released newer FF cameras that started to bring in price points I could consider.

I'm not going to go to a FF body until the price (either used or new) hits a point I can justify. But until then, I am building a lens collection that will work with my future FF camera. I'm expecting this to be a D700.

If Pentax had FF lenses, and was expected to bring out a FF camera, I might have considered to stay with Pentax. As it is, I'm shooting Nikon 90% of the time (I still have the K10D), and I doubt I will spend any money on new Pentax lenses.

I have been following this forum for a number of years now. I have seen many people leave for FF systems. I can't think I have seen anyone come back to APS-c after having made the jump to FF.
Exactly. IMHO, even if FF is a small market compared to APS-C, just having a FF model in the lineup with upgradable lenses (old MF, FA, DFA) will sell more than enough APS-C cameras to make the FF development cost effective.
02-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffshaddix Quote
Exactly. IMHO, even if FF is a small market compared to APS-C, just having a FF model in the lineup with upgradable lenses (old MF, FA, DFA) will sell more than enough APS-C cameras to make the FF development cost effective.
How can you expect any company to produce a line of FF camera bodies and lenses to use 'mainly' as a loss leader to sell their APS-C offerings? That is insane economics.

I doubt FF will last more than 5 more years anyway as technology will make APS-C better and better to the point where the weight-size/image-quality ratio will become exactly what people want and at a price they can afford. If the noise was lower on a K-5 it'd almost be at that point now.

Most clients for FF are pro shooters and press photographers.. it's hard to imagine those people changing at this point in time. Pentax needs to innovate and/or create/exploit NEW markets. These markets aren't necessarily geographic either, there are other demographics.

Any forays into FF territory would have to be as cheap as possible in terms of components and almost as revolutionary as the TTL metering and mirror were in the old days to attract clients. But even a K-5 sized FF might be enough for some people to consider a Pentax FF.

PS: An interesting way of allowing people with APS-C lenses to use a FF camera is Nikon's APS-C CROP feature in the D800. Many posters in these forums use the lack of FF lenses as a reason for why Pentax won't make a FF camera. Current DA lens owners could use a FF body with a crop mode until they bought-up an array of FA lenses - allowing clients to migrate one step at a time to FF. The FF body would sense the type of lens and automatically go into CROP MODE when a DA lens was connected.

* A square sensor would be ideal and with a range of frame formats to choose from.
If the sensor was square and the viewfinder was electronic, the camera would NOT need a grip for portrait mode shooting. Instead, the crop features would come into effect and allow portrait shooting from a standard camera orientation. This would allow the camera to be slightly bigger than a K-5 to facilitate better grip (K-5 is too small without the grip).

Last edited by bossa; 02-19-2012 at 04:52 PM.
02-19-2012, 03:29 PM   #118
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The reason many people expect Pentax to make a full frame is because throughout the history of the company they have never shied away from different formats. If they could revive the 645 mount and bring it to the digital world, and introduce a whole new Q mount, a FF K mount sounds like something that should naturally follow at some point. I believe that it will and I am willing to wait for that even if it takes a couple of years.
02-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #119
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QuoteQuote:
How can you expect any company to produce a line of FF camera bodies and lenses to use 'mainly' as a loss leader to sell their APS-C offerings? That is insane economics.
I'm not suggesting they sell their FF products for a loss, quite opposite in fact. If they release an innovative FF product (as you appropriately described), that would shake the market enough to start getting pro support, then as KungPOW mentioned, many new and existing people would buy into APS-C Pentax as a step towards FF (hence making up for the fact that FF is a small slice of the market).

By the way, completely agree with the square sensor idea. No more need to support portrait handhold position as well could make grips/battery packs more flexible.
02-19-2012, 05:06 PM   #120
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