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02-19-2012, 05:17 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I doubt FF will last more than 5 more years anyway as technology will make APS-C better and better to the point where the weight-size/image-quality ratio will become exactly what people want and at a price they can afford. If the noise was lower on a K-5 it'd almost be at that point now.
I think aps-c is going to reach a point of diminishing returns much sooner than FF. Right now, we're at 24MP at aps-c - this is getting to the point where diffraction starts to become an issue even in every day, smaller-aperture shooting. Lens issues and small focus errors at that pixel pitch will start to create some unhappy campers. Trying to fit 36MP into an aps-c sensor for example is not going to be pretty, and I'm not even sure 24MP is a great idea in aps-c with the state of the art QE.

QuoteQuote:
Most clients for FF are pro shooters and press photographers..
Not at all - there are not enough pros and PJs out there to account for sales of the D3 lines alone. It's almost entirely an enthusiast market. Pros are the most visible shooters of FF, which helps carry the 'it's all pro's' meme.



QuoteQuote:
PS: An interesting way of allowing people with APS-C lenses to use a FF camera is Nikon's APS-C CROP feature in the D800. Many posters in these forums use the lack of FF lenses as a reason for why Pentax won't make a FF camera. Current DA lens owners could use a FF body with a crop mode until they bought-up an array of FA lenses - allowing clients to migrate one step at a time to FF. The FF body would sense the type of lens and automatically go into CROP MODE when a DA lens was connected.
One of the benefits of that 36MP is that feature. The Nikon forums are showing a lot of this activity, a lot of interest from aps-c shooters who want to buy the D800 but don't want to spend another $2000 on FF lenses at the same time - the DX mode allows them to transition at their pace. It's really pretty cool.

.

02-19-2012, 06:00 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I think aps-c is going to reach a point of diminishing returns much sooner than FF. Right now, we're at 24MP at aps-c - this is getting to the point where diffraction starts to become an issue even in every day, smaller-aperture shooting. Lens issues and small focus errors at that pixel pitch will start to create some unhappy campers. Trying to fit 36MP into an aps-c sensor for example is not going to be pretty, and I'm not even sure 24MP is a great idea in aps-c with the state of the art QE.



Not at all - there are not enough pros and PJs out there to account for sales of the D3 lines alone. It's almost entirely an enthusiast market. Pros are the most visible shooters of FF, which helps carry the 'it's all pro's' meme.





One of the benefits of that 36MP is that feature. The Nikon forums are showing a lot of this activity, a lot of interest from aps-c shooters who want to buy the D800 but don't want to spend another $2000 on FF lenses at the same time - the DX mode allows them to transition at their pace. It's really pretty cool.

.
I have no facts to back up my assumptions and was surmising re' the pro percentages. You're also probably right about the limits of APS-C because I doubt it could go beyond 24mpx. A new square FF format with format/orientation cropping features might be the best way for Pentax to win over Pro's.

PS: I don't see what 36mpx has to do with that cropping feature apart from the fact that the pixel density is around the same as a D7000 and thus the output would look about the same. You could easily have done the same thing with any FF camera but wouldn't have had the same resolution. The more interesting extension of that crop feature would be to have a square sensor so as to allow for portrait/landscape cropping as well.
02-19-2012, 06:21 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
PS: I don't see what 36mpx has to do with that cropping feature apart from the fact that the pixel density is around the same as a D7000 and thus the output would look about the same. You could easily have done the same thing with any FF camera but wouldn't have had the same resolution. .
Yes, that's the big change here (36MP) - cropping the D700 for example only gives you about 5.5MP in the frame, and that gets you very nice 8x10 shots, but doesn't scale much larger. DX mode on 36MP now gives you 15MP, which almost gives you a full aps-c camera inside the FF camera, and takes the 'reach' argument away from aps-c.

It's also a big deal that this is happening at the $3000 price point. There were some "in-the-know" () folks on the Nikon forums that were convinced that there's no way Nikon would be willing to offer a 36MP body with AF, DR and SNR improvements over the D700 and real video capability for anything less than $6000. This $3000 body seems to be bringing in aps-c shooters left and right, and a big part of that is that they can shoot their DX lenses without any obvious degradation over what their aps-c camera gives them. Nikon has allowed DX shooters to transition into FF fairly easily with this body.
02-19-2012, 06:31 PM   #124
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Yeah, I was about to buy another Sigma Zoom lens but have put that on hold to see what the D800 comes into OZ for.. even though our Dollar is higher than the US$ we will probably see the body selling for around $4.5k here.. we get ripped off something fierce. I'd seriously consider selling my Pentax stuff to fund one and the 4 lenses I'd want.

02-19-2012, 06:34 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Yeah, I was about to buy another Sigma Zoom lens but have put that on hold to see what the D800 comes into OZ for.. even though our Dollar is higher than the US$ we will probably see the body selling for around $4.5k here.. we get ripped off something fierce. I'd seriously consider selling my Pentax stuff to fund one and the 4 lenses I'd want.
Or, you can buy my D700. It will probably go to some Pentaxian for a very sweet price fairly soon here.
02-19-2012, 06:35 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Or, you can buy my D700. It will probably go to some Pentaxian for a very sweet price fairly soon here.
..nice try.. ;-) I know what I want at the moment. But that could change within an hour or so if LBA kicks in. LOL
02-19-2012, 06:45 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
..nice try.. ;-) I know what I want at the moment. But that could change within an hour or so if LBA kicks in. LOL
We also should wait to see what Sony comes out with in FF, and Pentax comes out with in aps-c DSLR. I'll bet the next flagship Pentax DSLR will be pretty sweet as well.
02-19-2012, 07:44 PM   #128
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Yes, Sony has some nice Zeiss lenses to be sure...

But you already have a Nikon FF system so you aren't exactly waiting right?

02-19-2012, 08:10 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote

But you already have a Nikon FF system so you aren't exactly waiting right?
Not really, no. I just think Pentax has a path forward that doesn't have to involve gimmicks, and if they want to keep K-mount viable in this new world, they'll need to take that path.
02-19-2012, 10:19 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Yes, that's the big change here (36MP) - cropping the D700 for example only gives you about 5.5MP in the frame, and that gets you very nice 8x10 shots, but doesn't scale much larger. DX mode on 36MP now gives you 15MP, .
Is DX mode only for JPEG?
02-20-2012, 07:40 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Is DX mode only for JPEG?
No, raw as well.
02-20-2012, 08:25 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This $3000 body seems to be bringing in aps-c shooters left and right, and a big part of that is that they can shoot their DX lenses without any obvious degradation over what their aps-c camera gives them. Nikon has allowed DX shooters to transition into FF fairly easily with this body.
Basically they spend 3000 dollars for a D7000.
02-20-2012, 10:49 AM   #133
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The D800 is nice but it has one big disappointment, it sets the FF price entry again at 3K$. We were all hoping for a sub-2K FF but all that will be available are used bodies.
02-20-2012, 10:59 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
This $3000 body seems to be bringing in aps-c shooters left and right
I keep saying this for the last two years now.

APS-C dSLRs are going to disappear, replaced by FF dSLRs and APS-C mirrorless. Nobody believed me. Now the D800 shows you how it feels like when it is happening.

It will accelerate when Nikon launches their own APS-C mirrorless. Sony may release both, an SLT and SLR full frame. But anyway, they already killed APS-C dSLRs for themselves too.
02-20-2012, 11:54 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I keep saying this for the last two years now.

APS-C dSLRs are going to disappear, replaced by FF dSLRs and APS-C mirrorless. Nobody believed me. Now the D800 shows you how it feels like when it is happening.

It will accelerate when Nikon launches their own APS-C mirrorless. Sony may release both, an SLT and SLR full frame. But anyway, they already killed APS-C dSLRs for themselves too.
Ah, those people can choose between either no-OVF or upgrading to FF. Yeah, then I would upgrade to FF too, if I was forced to. What does that say about the quality of mirrorless systems, when people think they're so crappy that they're willing to pay triple the amount, just to get a OVF?

Last edited by Clavius; 02-20-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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