Pentax Full Frame Dream Crushed Today

**BigDave** · 04-08-2012, 05:31 PM

how about a ff that can at least have partial WR using older lenses (KA/M and FA)! Now that would be a trick!

regards,

Edvinas · 04-08-2012, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by BigDave

how about a ff that can at least have partial WR using older lenses (KA/M and FA)! Now that would be a trick!

regards,

Well, first let they fix/improve essential things:

Autofocus
Exposure system
P-TTL flash exposure

traderdrew · 04-09-2012, 07:03 AM

I hope Pentax comes out with a FF but I will not be in a rush to buy it. I read it takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to design and launch a new camera so I wouldn't expect to see it at Photokina this year. It would seem to make sense to me the 645D will be converted into a FF someday when technology comes around unless they use a sensor with less megapixels.

I'm making a promise to myself that this is the last time this year I will click on a "wishing for a FF thread". I'm a little puzzled why some people wish to live or die over a Pentax FF. It is as though some believe they will never be good photographers without it. Maybe some of you are trying to send a message to Ricoh. I would think one way they are going to get the message is to find out why some talented photographers have switched brands and if the reason is a FF, they have to factor that into their decisions.

The answer to good photography is in you. You just have to find a way to create the end results.

Good luck!

Coeurdechene · 04-10-2012, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by traderdrew

The answer to good photography is in you. You just have to find a way to create the end results.

True BUT a particular tool can make it easier to achieve certain result... if you work on it, as with everything, there are workarounds around any format's limitations, so FF isn't really a need, it's just a convenient tool that enables you to do some things that are more difficult to achieve with Aps-c.

Been around a week now that i bought the d800, and i'm just captivated, not only by the FF sensor with it's bigger DOF control and the big viewfinder. The AF is a dream especially it's 3D mode, it's convenient, snappy and responsive, fast even in dark conditions... the intervallometer... the video mode is very very compeling, it's given me the thirst of learning about filmmaking... it's all those extra, fairly litle, features and details that have finally utterly captivated me. Oh and 24mm is quite wide when you got an FF sensor...i want mooooorrreee but i haven't felt limited yet (oh that 2000$ 14-24 is sooo tempting!).
Till now i've been just fooling around, getting used to the ergonomics, controls, features, but got a couple of ideas of photos i want to make, will probably post them once i pull myself together and shoot them

.

**Ash** · 04-10-2012, 01:05 PM

FF cameras such as the D800 come with a price, and it's the clear consensus that Pentaxians want the CHOICE to go FF with Pentax if they so desired and had the money to do so. Although I too am soberingly aware that APS-C is enough for just about any application, there is still virtue in having a FF body in the lineup:

1. Pentax have, and are still producing and selling, wonderful and unrivalled legacy FF lenses that will go straight with a K-mount FF body in the FA limiteds and DFA macros,
2. There is a significant gap between APS-C and MF, both in terms of price as well as utility, and
3. A FF body would undoubtedly bring a number of professional and enthusiast photographers to the brand.

None of these factors of course have anything to do with photographer skill - all things being equal, a skilled photographer has more latitude to work with on a FF body as opposed to an APS-C body. And that means something also. Having said all that, on my part I'm quite content with the K-5, though I'd strongly consider a Pentax FF body priced and spec'd like the D800 if it were available today...

noblepa · 04-11-2012, 07:47 AM

Everyone keeps talking about the technical merits of FF vs. APS-C cameras. I don't think that anyone seriously disagrees with that, even the Pentax engineers and executives.

However, the technical pros/cons have, IMHO, little to nothing to do with Pentax' seeming reluctance to enter the FF market. Its all about return on investment.

Pentax is a relatively small company. Yes, Ricoh is a large company, but I don't think that Ricoh has given pentax a blank check. New products must still pay their way. IMHO, FF is, at best, a break-even proposition that may (or may not) have some sort of "halo" effect the boosts sales of APS-C cameras.

The FF market is small and is not growing much. Furthermore, Canon and Nikon seem to have that niche pretty well sewn up. Even Sony, with their enormously deep pockets and penchant for insisting on market dominance, has been unable to make a serious dent in the Canikon hegemony. What makes anyone think that Pentax could do any better?

OTOH, the mirrorless camera market is wide open and growing fast. Secondly, no one company has emerged (yet) as the dominant player. If I were a Pentax product planner or financial executive, involved in the decision of where to invest, I'd go into the MILC market long before the FF segment. That seems to be the thinking at Pentax. Witness the Q and the K-01.

Whether you think that the Q and/or K-01 are good cameras, one must admit that they are an attempt by Pentax to "hit 'em where they ain't". Pentax is trying to enter the MILC market with cameras that have no direct competition. The Q is extraordinarily tiny, while the K-01 is the only MILC that accepts legacy lenses without an adapter.

Could Pentax make a FF camera? Of course they could. Other than the size of the sensor, they're not fundamentally different than APS-C cameras. Will Pentax make a FF camera? I seriously doubt it, for the reasons I've outlined. Pentax stands a much, much better chance of growing their market share and revenues in the MILC market than in the FF segment.

Clavius · 04-11-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by noblepa

Pentax is a relatively small company. Yes, Ricoh is a large company, but I don't think that Ricoh has given pentax a blank check. New products must still pay their way. IMHO, FF is, at best, a break-even proposition that may (or may not) have some sort of "halo" effect the boosts sales of APS-C cameras.

Yes, Pentax is a small company. But that didn't stop them from developing the 645D into a market that was also already being taken care of by others. If they can do that under Hoya, then I think going FF with the support of Ricoh would be easy, compared to what they did with the 645D.

falconeye · 04-11-2012, 08:25 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by noblepa

The FF market is small and is not growing much.

It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die.

K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later.

DaveBlack · 04-11-2012, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die.

K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later.

All very true.

the swede · 04-11-2012, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

K mount is too large for mirrorless?

Why?

Kunzite · 04-11-2012, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die.

K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later.

Give me a timeline, say a reasonably close date when Pentax would cease to exists if they won't have a FF by then; and let's make a bet.

P.S. I'd rather say APS-C image quality will get better, not worse. If it's good for an SLR now, it will remain so in the future.

**Pål Jensen** · 04-11-2012, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die.

K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later.

Around 95% of all DSLR sales are APS. With newer sensor and better quality the need for larger sensor will diminish if anything. The K-mount is dependent on sucessful cameras with APS sensors.
APS image quality is good enough for even highly demanding professional needs*. And that is with todays technology. In fact it APS is the most popular format among professional photographers.
The future is smaller sensors with larger than APS as a niche; pretty much like today.

* A professional friend of mine sold a 3m sized print to the Norwegian Broadcasting to decorate their office walls. It was shot with a Canon 7D. He got paid $5000....

jsherman999 · 04-11-2012, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Give me a timeline, say a reasonably close date when Pentax would cease to exists if they won't have a FF by then; and let's make a bet.

He said K-mount will cease to exist, not necessarily Pentax - and I agree with him.

Anyone who shoots K-mount should hope for a positive FF announcement from Pentax, even if you have no wish to buy a FF camera body.

.

falconeye · 04-11-2012, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by the swede

Why?

The discussion about my claim could be endless. I cannot prove it and I may be wrong. So, it is just my opinion I wanted to share.

As for a timeline, I'd say in 5 years from now, Pentax will look very different without adding FF. I didn't say Pentax would die, I said the K mount will. Just like what happened to Olympus and the FourThirds mount. One of the two died.

**Pål Jensen** · 04-11-2012, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Yes, Pentax is a small company. But that didn't stop them from developing the 645D into a market that was also already being taken care of by others. If they can do that under Hoya, then I think going FF with the support of Ricoh would be easy, compared to what they did with the 645D.

...but medium format digital was exclusively made by even smaller companies. Pentax is a giant among them.

04-08-2012, 05:54 PM	#632
Edvinas Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kaunas Posts: 1,458	Originally posted by BigDave how about a ff that can at least have partial WR using older lenses (KA/M and FA)! Now that would be a trick! regards, Well, first let they fix/improve essential things: Autofocus Exposure system P-TTL flash exposure

04-11-2012, 11:09 AM	#643
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Kunzite Give me a timeline, say a reasonably close date when Pentax would cease to exists if they won't have a FF by then; and let's make a bet. He said K-mount will cease to exist, not necessarily Pentax - and I agree with him. Anyone who shoots K-mount should hope for a positive FF announcement from Pentax, even if you have no wish to buy a FF camera body. . Last edited by jsherman999; 04-11-2012 at 11:19 AM.

04-11-2012, 11:11 AM	#644
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by the swede Why? The discussion about my claim could be endless. I cannot prove it and I may be wrong. So, it is just my opinion I wanted to share. As for a timeline, I'd say in 5 years from now, Pentax will look very different without adding FF. I didn't say Pentax would die, I said the K mount will. Just like what happened to Olympus and the FourThirds mount. One of the two died. Last edited by falconeye; 04-11-2012 at 11:16 AM.

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04-08-2012, 05:31 PM	#631
BigDave Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,626	how about a ff that can at least have partial WR using older lenses (KA/M and FA)! Now that would be a trick! regards,

04-09-2012, 07:03 AM	#633
traderdrew Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Florida Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 639	I hope Pentax comes out with a FF but I will not be in a rush to buy it. I read it takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to design and launch a new camera so I wouldn't expect to see it at Photokina this year. It would seem to make sense to me the 645D will be converted into a FF someday when technology comes around unless they use a sensor with less megapixels. I'm making a promise to myself that this is the last time this year I will click on a "wishing for a FF thread". I'm a little puzzled why some people wish to live or die over a Pentax FF. It is as though some believe they will never be good photographers without it. Maybe some of you are trying to send a message to Ricoh. I would think one way they are going to get the message is to find out why some talented photographers have switched brands and if the reason is a FF, they have to factor that into their decisions. The answer to good photography is in you. You just have to find a way to create the end results. Good luck!

04-10-2012, 08:53 AM	#634
Coeurdechene Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: madrid Photos: Albums Posts: 833	Originally posted by traderdrew The answer to good photography is in you. You just have to find a way to create the end results. True BUT a particular tool can make it easier to achieve certain result... if you work on it, as with everything, there are workarounds around any format's limitations, so FF isn't really a need, it's just a convenient tool that enables you to do some things that are more difficult to achieve with Aps-c. Been around a week now that i bought the d800, and i'm just captivated, not only by the FF sensor with it's bigger DOF control and the big viewfinder. The AF is a dream especially it's 3D mode, it's convenient, snappy and responsive, fast even in dark conditions... the intervallometer... the video mode is very very compeling, it's given me the thirst of learning about filmmaking... it's all those extra, fairly litle, features and details that have finally utterly captivated me. Oh and 24mm is quite wide when you got an FF sensor...i want mooooorrreee but i haven't felt limited yet (oh that 2000$ 14-24 is sooo tempting!). Till now i've been just fooling around, getting used to the ergonomics, controls, features, but got a couple of ideas of photos i want to make, will probably post them once i pull myself together and shoot them .

04-10-2012, 01:05 PM	#635
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	FF cameras such as the D800 come with a price, and it's the clear consensus that Pentaxians want the CHOICE to go FF with Pentax if they so desired and had the money to do so. Although I too am soberingly aware that APS-C is enough for just about any application, there is still virtue in having a FF body in the lineup: 1. Pentax have, and are still producing and selling, wonderful and unrivalled legacy FF lenses that will go straight with a K-mount FF body in the FA limiteds and DFA macros, 2. There is a significant gap between APS-C and MF, both in terms of price as well as utility, and 3. A FF body would undoubtedly bring a number of professional and enthusiast photographers to the brand. None of these factors of course have anything to do with photographer skill - all things being equal, a skilled photographer has more latitude to work with on a FF body as opposed to an APS-C body. And that means something also. Having said all that, on my part I'm quite content with the K-5, though I'd strongly consider a Pentax FF body priced and spec'd like the D800 if it were available today...

04-11-2012, 07:47 AM	#636
noblepa Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bay Village, Ohio USA Posts: 1,142	Everyone keeps talking about the technical merits of FF vs. APS-C cameras. I don't think that anyone seriously disagrees with that, even the Pentax engineers and executives. However, the technical pros/cons have, IMHO, little to nothing to do with Pentax' seeming reluctance to enter the FF market. Its all about return on investment. Pentax is a relatively small company. Yes, Ricoh is a large company, but I don't think that Ricoh has given pentax a blank check. New products must still pay their way. IMHO, FF is, at best, a break-even proposition that may (or may not) have some sort of "halo" effect the boosts sales of APS-C cameras. The FF market is small and is not growing much. Furthermore, Canon and Nikon seem to have that niche pretty well sewn up. Even Sony, with their enormously deep pockets and penchant for insisting on market dominance, has been unable to make a serious dent in the Canikon hegemony. What makes anyone think that Pentax could do any better? OTOH, the mirrorless camera market is wide open and growing fast. Secondly, no one company has emerged (yet) as the dominant player. If I were a Pentax product planner or financial executive, involved in the decision of where to invest, I'd go into the MILC market long before the FF segment. That seems to be the thinking at Pentax. Witness the Q and the K-01. Whether you think that the Q and/or K-01 are good cameras, one must admit that they are an attempt by Pentax to "hit 'em where they ain't". Pentax is trying to enter the MILC market with cameras that have no direct competition. The Q is extraordinarily tiny, while the K-01 is the only MILC that accepts legacy lenses without an adapter. Could Pentax make a FF camera? Of course they could. Other than the size of the sensor, they're not fundamentally different than APS-C cameras. Will Pentax make a FF camera? I seriously doubt it, for the reasons I've outlined. Pentax stands a much, much better chance of growing their market share and revenues in the MILC market than in the FF segment.

04-11-2012, 07:59 AM	#637
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by noblepa Pentax is a relatively small company. Yes, Ricoh is a large company, but I don't think that Ricoh has given pentax a blank check. New products must still pay their way. IMHO, FF is, at best, a break-even proposition that may (or may not) have some sort of "halo" effect the boosts sales of APS-C cameras. Yes, Pentax is a small company. But that didn't stop them from developing the 645D into a market that was also already being taken care of by others. If they can do that under Hoya, then I think going FF with the support of Ricoh would be easy, compared to what they did with the 645D.

04-11-2012, 08:25 AM - 1 Like	#638
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by noblepa The FF market is small and is not growing much. It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die. K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later.

04-11-2012, 08:35 AM	#639
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by falconeye It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die. K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later. All very true.

04-11-2012, 10:29 AM	#640
the swede Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,310	Originally posted by falconeye K mount is too large for mirrorless? Why?

04-11-2012, 11:02 AM	#641
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by falconeye It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die. K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later. Give me a timeline, say a reasonably close date when Pentax would cease to exists if they won't have a FF by then; and let's make a bet. P.S. I'd rather say APS-C image quality will get better, not worse. If it's good for an SLR now, it will remain so in the future.

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04-11-2012, 11:08 AM	#642
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by falconeye It's very easy. If Pentax doesn't go FF, the K mount will die. K mount is too large for mirrorless and APSC image quality is too low for an SLR. Both statements will be true sooner than later. Around 95% of all DSLR sales are APS. With newer sensor and better quality the need for larger sensor will diminish if anything. The K-mount is dependent on sucessful cameras with APS sensors. APS image quality is good enough for even highly demanding professional needs. And that is with todays technology. In fact it APS is the most popular format among professional photographers. The future is smaller sensors with larger than APS as a niche; pretty much like today. A professional friend of mine sold a 3m sized print to the Norwegian Broadcasting to decorate their office walls. It was shot with a Canon 7D. He got paid $5000....

04-11-2012, 11:13 AM	#645
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Clavius Yes, Pentax is a small company. But that didn't stop them from developing the 645D into a market that was also already being taken care of by others. If they can do that under Hoya, then I think going FF with the support of Ricoh would be easy, compared to what they did with the 645D. ...but medium format digital was exclusively made by even smaller companies. Pentax is a giant among them.