[gazonk]

I'm talking SLR's only. In the latter half of the 70's Pentax, Canon and Minolta otsold Nikon by a significant margin. Nikon was a maker of crude and conservative (but solid) SLR's that was behind even Topcon and Miranda technically.

Hey, don't insult Topcon! My first SLR (I was 14) was a Topcon Unirex - great little camera, which I replaced with Pentax MX mostly because of the scarcity of lenses for the Unirex.

[RonHendriks1966]

It doesn't need to be. An updated or replaced SAFOX with more dedicated processing, more & smaller AF sensors, and more cross-type would make the AF system take a big jump up. It's just funding --> engineering in the end.

Well a big part is the processor that does all the work. Canon did put a third processor in the 1Dx that has only one task, and that is to stear the AF-system. Currently the K-5 has just one slowish processor that can't keep up with difficult tasks and on the same time go on and process images. Giving a new FF camera two of the PRIME M processors would make that machine a lot more capable. That is one part of the system, the AF-sensor module is another one that needs attention.

[Coeurdechene]

Doesn't the D800 have auto focus issues?

As jsherman pointed it's not a "general" issue, but a calibrating error in one of the production lines...it's not widespread and by now i'm sure it's comepletely fixed.

Canon and Nikon APS cameras outsell their FF counterparts with significant margins.

for every FF camera sold about 35 APS-C or m43 cameras are sold

It's because of the price point...but if rumors are true and the d600 hits the market with a low price point (around 1500$) then i'm sure the sales of FF will go up by a significant margin...at that price point it'll be in the ground of the "advanced" aps-c cameras. Having a high resFFf camera is like having all the benefits of FF with the possibility to crop significantly to field of views of the smaller aps-c cameras.
If the d600 does come out at that low price point Pentax will have to release FF or at least a hell of an aps-c camera able to compete against something that has some capabilities an aps-c camera will lack. Pentax has a lot of work ahead.

[RonHendriks1966]

Well at a descent pricepoint, K-5 price is starting at 709 euro at the time, like 1400-1500 euro I would love to buy that K-1 FF with 24 megapixel. Some trade-off like only having the electronics of K-01 (just one PRIME M processor) is okay for that price.

When it is the sensor from D3x, maybe some update to make it faster (I hope 6 fps), ready for moviemode, and ready for more hi iso-settings, and I hope also iso50 that would be a great camera.
DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side

[Mehlsack]

I talked to a pnta represenatative some month ago and everything he answered for my questions was " there need to be something we can put in the "bugger/next" modell" and i think this is wrong, due t the advancement of technology there will always be "something" and if it is a new processor for the APS-C Flagship, i think this is ok, Pentax cant always hide behinde"the next model" i think a some point in time they have to show what they are capable of and with the release of the differents FFs like D800 and maybe D600 there should show that they a quite capable, or just leave it be. But if they focus on APS-C they should deliver some hell of a camera, maybe somethink like blazing fast AF+ astonishing FPS (12-20), dual SDXC etc.

Like Coeurdechene said, why should i buy a APS-C when i can have a FF + ApS-C crop possibilities ??

[Pål Jensen]

As jsherman pointed it's not a "general" issue, but a calibrating error in one of the production lines...it's not widespread and by now i'm sure it's comepletely fixed.


It's because of the price point...but if rumors are true and the d600 hits the market with a low price point (around 1500$) then i'm sure the sales of FF will go up by a significant margin...at that price point it'll be in the ground of the "advanced" aps-c cameras. Having a high resFFf camera is like having all the benefits of FF with the possibility to crop significantly to field of views of the smaller aps-c cameras.
If the d600 does come out at that low price point Pentax will have to release FF or at least a hell of an aps-c camera able to compete against something that has some capabilities an aps-c camera will lack. Pentax has a lot of work ahead.

It is very unlikely that the camera will cost less than $2000. It is the size of the sensor that cost money. Besides, a cheaper FF sensor also means even cheaper APS sensors as the volume is larger and the sensor smaller.
The advantage of FF is only an advantage for those who want that advantage; mainly higher resolution. For the rest it is a drawback; it is a mistake to believe the majority wants FF. The quality possibly from APS is way beyond what the market demand. It is good enough for demanding professional work.
A $2000+ camera plus a a couple of zoom lenses that not only do the 24mp sensor justice, but also future sensors, then we are soon at a cost level of $5000; out of reach of most. The alternative is to target it at users of existing lenses something I think Pentax intend to start with as there are very few FF lenses in the line-up and none on the roadmap. Incidentally the roadmap show that Pentax do not think high-end APS is going away anytime soon based on the future lenses on that very map.
Cropping FF sensors is a waste of money and weight.

[Coeurdechene]

It is very unlikely that the camera will cost less than $2000.

More Nikon D600 rumors | Nikon Rumors ..i'm of your opinion but i sure hope the rumour is right and we see a 1500$ FF camera. And then pricing isn't only about costs, Nikon, i'm sure, is able to deliver a FF at that price point and still make money. That doesn't mean they will lower the prices of all models, they may eliminate at least one aps-c model line (my bets are: the 5000 line, and the 300 that'll become entry FF).And they'll adjust the price of the d700 bringing it close to the k5 price.

The advantage of FF is only an advantage for those who want that advantage; mainly higher resolution. For the rest it is a drawback

It ain't it's "only" advantage, you get more depth of field control, better high ISO performance (not really better performance, but smaller noise that at a determined viewing size is lees noticeable than with an aps-c sensor of the same pixel pitch), more resolution wich gets you more cropping space, then you get wider field of views, and some lens possibilities that woud be too expensive to devellop in aps-c for a similar performance. And the only drawback i see is the bigger size and weight (wich i'm sure can be dealt with to a certain degree).

Incidentally the roadmap show that Pentax do not think high-end APS is going away anytime soon based on the future lenses on that very map. Cropping FF sensors is a waste of money and weight.

You might be right, but if the d600 is true and if sony gets out there a a99 at a competitive price then the trend might be the expasion of FF usage and presence further from the limits of pro or wealthy amateur/serious enthusiast. Maybe that's the reason Canon has kept the 5dII model in production, they might be preparing to hold that entry-FF line and release an entry 5D.
As for cropping being a waste of money..it's only a waste if you do it all the time, it's a possibility that may come in handy expanding the range of things you can do with an FF camera, while for the aps-c that is hard limit.

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Last edited by Coeurdechene; 04-26-2012 at 05:14 PM.

[falconeye]

It is the size of the sensor that cost money. Besides, a cheaper FF sensor also means even cheaper APS sensors as the volume is larger and the sensor smaller.
The advantage of FF is only an advantage for those who want that advantage;

As I tried to explain (in my white papers too), the truth is more complex. If you include the cost to build a lens of a given (equivalent) quality, the cost of a camera is large for very small and very large sensors, and hits a sweet spot for some best size.

This best size depends on the quality requirement and moment in time: because lenses increase and sensors decrease in price over time.

The new anticipated $1500 24MP FF cameras from Sony, Nikon and maybe Pentax would be the foreseeable consequence of this.

And Sony has a strong reason to push FF into this price segment: They have to ensure that the value of the sensor in 1000+$ cameras isn't marginalzed. And this isn't possible with APSC sensors which have become cheaper than the processors in the cameras.

And because everybody agrees that APSC style lenses have the advantage to be lightweight, Nikon already started to make their FF equivalents, like the rumored 24-70/3.5-4.5

[glanglois]

Sorry, Falk, but it's at the end of a long day here. What is an "APS-C style lens"?

[jsherman999]

And Sony has a strong reason to push FF into this price segment: They have to ensure that the value of the sensor in 1000+$ cameras isn't marginalzed. And this isn't possible with APSC sensors which have become cheaper than the processors in the cameras.

Excellent point.

.

[alstauffer]

Sorry, Falk, but it's at the end of a long day here. What is an "APS-C style lens"?

My guess: A lens only covering the smaller image circle of the APS-C sensor.

[jsherman999]

My guess: A lens only covering the smaller image circle of the APS-C sensor.

Or a FF lens made with a smaller max aperture to reduce size/cost, basically giving up some of the FF advantage and 'matching' aps-c. Any f/4 zooms for example (24-70 f/4, 70-200 f/4)

[bossa]

From the information I have been able to source, for every FF camera sold about 35 APS-C or m43 cameras are sold.

Yes but it's not 'only' about the camera bodies as the people who buy FF pro-machines are probably more likely to spend up on very expensive lenses.

[LubaSAB]

I cannot have ' FF APS-C ' with one optics as is not present at “ Pentax FF ”.
“APS-C”, it is specific and ideal for work on a panorama, but all other this flat with absence of air ' plywood '.
It is impossible on “APS-C” to be realized with full feedback.
And still, whether became more with arrival “APS-C” a photo of works noteworthy?

[LubaSAB]

Я не могу иметь "FF + APS-C" с одной оптикой, так как нет у “Pentax FF”.
“APS-C”, специфична и идеален для работы с панорама, но всё остальное это плоское с отсутствием воздуха "фанера".
Невозможно на “APS-C” реализоваться с полной отдачей.
И ещё, стало ли больше с приходом “APS-C” фото работ достойных внимания?