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06-28-2012, 09:19 AM   #331
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I find it interesting that this thread "FF rumors" could spark so many little arguments. Personally I don't even own a lens that would work on a FF anymore, but would I like to see Pentax make one? the answer is yes, because I believe that if Pentax wants to stay competitive they "need" to have a FF camera, and if most of you are like me, once it is out you would want to buy it. By not putting one out they would in the long run be bleeding off more and more customer base, and in the camera world once someone jumps ship for canon or nikon, pentax will never get them back. Pentax my not ever be up there in market shares with nikon and canon, but if they keep creating good equipement they can certainly keep the costumers they have. They don't need to be first on the market, and in some ways that it much better (in camera IS makes so much more sense than putting it in every lens) but they need to be in the market at some point.
As far as the "do you need a full frame camera" argument goes, I would say it doesn't really matter. NEED and WANT mean pretty much the same thing to me. Right now I WANT a DA* 300 f4, in fact I NEED a 300 f4, so before long im going to buy it. So if that full frame comes out in the next year or two, i am sure I will NEED that too. Now that i think of it, there are a whole bunch of things i need...2012 porsche boxter S, 2012 Ski Nautique, a 600 mm f4, and the list is really long so ill just stop there.


Last edited by Williunck; 06-28-2012 at 09:44 AM.
06-28-2012, 09:44 AM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by Williunck Quote
I find it interesting that this thread "FF rumors" could spark so many little arguments. Personally I don't even own a lens that would work on a FF anymore, but would I like to see Pentax make one? the answer is yes, because I believe that if Pentax wants to stay competitive they "need" to have a FF camera, and if most of you are like me, once it is out you would want to buy it. By not putting one out they would in the long run be bleeding off more and more customer base, and in the camera world once someone jumps ship for canon or nikon, pentax will never get them back. Pentax my not ever be up there in market shares with nikon and canon, but if they keep creating good equipement they can certainly keep the costumers they have. They don't need to be first on the market, and in some ways that it much better (in camera IS makes so much more sense than putting it in every lens) but they need to be in the market at some point.
As far as the "do you need a full frame camera" argument goes, I would say it doesn't really matter. NEED and WANT mean pretty much the same thing to me. Right now I WANT a DA* 300 f4, in fact I NEED a 300 f4, so before long im going to buy it. So if that full frame comes out in the next year or two, i am sure I will NEED that too.
Well put. FF won't only save existing base though, it will help draw a new user base which is critical. Ricoh has said their goal is to triple camera unit sale by the end of next year If I remember correctly. Not going to achieve that with just a K30 and a K 5 replacement. there will need to be a new entry model and a higher model (they also did mention the need for the DSLR line to be 4 bodies to be effective)
so K30.0/K30/K3 and KF1 maybe
I don't imagine the comment about a DSLR line needing 4 bodies was including MILC or MF, they are distinct product lines
06-28-2012, 09:48 AM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Williunck Quote
... I believe that if Pentax wants to stay competitive they "need" to have a FF camera, and if most of you are like me, once it is out you would want to buy it...
I think you're right. Once Pentax loses a customer on an upgrade path it'd be difficult to get them back. As discussed before there is too large a gap between 645D and the APS-C camera so customers go elsewhere and Pentax loses. It seems Pentax is focusing on entry-level shooters, drawing in a number of new customers. More customers is great, but a lot of these new customers buying their first DSLR are fine with using the kit lens. They aren't interested, or don't even know about the Limited or * lines. It's a losing game for Pentax. These customers aren't buying premium lenses or if they are interested in upgrading, they can only go so far before wanting a FF. That's why Pentax needs to fill the gap.
06-28-2012, 09:49 AM   #334
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QuoteQuote:
I've done stitching that, even at screen resolution, I could tell the difference between the downsized 100 megapixel and the 'standard' k-5. YMMV.
That's interesting... if I had any stitching software, I'd certainly give that a try. Do you have any images you can post?

06-28-2012, 09:55 AM   #335
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You continue to display a belief that technical differences don't exist, even though they absolutely do, and that you are a better judge of other photographer's needs and wants than they are. Why? It's honestly baffling and, I hate to say it, rather irritating.
Listen up. You quoted me saying there were differences, (that are largely irrelevant to the every day shooter) but differences none the less and then claimed, right after the quote that I said there were no differences. I have three words for you... learn to read.
06-28-2012, 10:25 AM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
That's interesting... if I had any stitching software, I'd certainly give that a try. Do you have any images you can post?
Yup, but it was a year or so ago (not such a big deal) and a hard drive crash ago (a big deal). I still have the base data backed up but I think I might need to re-stitch them. Right now I'm crashing for some stuff at work but I might/should be able to get to it this weekend; honestly I might just start over from scratch, it might be quicker to prove the point if you don't mind not looking at a 'pretty' picture.

If you'd like to see something sooner, I use Hugin, it's free stitching software. It works great for me most of the time; I'd suggest starting conservatively (i.e. try to stich together 3 images taken from a tripod with large overlap (50%) and then start pushing the envelope from there.
06-28-2012, 10:46 AM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Williunck Quote
I find it interesting that this thread "FF rumors" could spark so many little arguments. Personally I don't even own a lens that would work on a FF anymore, but would I like to see Pentax make one? the answer is yes, because I believe that if Pentax wants to stay competitive they "need" to have a FF camera, and if most of you are like me, once it is out you would want to buy it. By not putting one out they would in the long run be bleeding off more and more customer base, and in the camera world once someone jumps ship for canon or nikon, pentax will never get them back. Pentax my not ever be up there in market shares with nikon and canon, but if they keep creating good equipement they can certainly keep the costumers they have. They don't need to be first on the market, and in some ways that it much better (in camera IS makes so much more sense than putting it in every lens) but they need to be in the market at some point.
As far as the "do you need a full frame camera" argument goes, I would say it doesn't really matter. NEED and WANT mean pretty much the same thing to me. Right now I WANT a DA* 300 f4, in fact I NEED a 300 f4, so before long im going to buy it. So if that full frame comes out in the next year or two, i am sure I will NEED that too. Now that i think of it, there are a whole bunch of things i need...2012 porsche boxter S, 2012 Ski Nautique, a 600 mm f4, and the list is really long so ill just stop there.
But isn't this the point? How big is the market for those who 'want' a full frame Pentax camera. I just don't know. The higher the cost, the tougher the sell even if people want something. Pentax has to meet certain specs (roughly D800 level) and certain pricing (2500 dollars?) in order to be able to sell any. In particular, they would need to draw people from Nikon and Canon camps in order to make a go of it. If the only benefit of Pentax full frame is that it is a little smaller than equivalent Nikon/Canon options, I wonder how it would sell. Understanding that the biggest benefit from a Pentaxian's standpoint (the k mount) is not important to those who don't already own k mount glass.

Nikon and Canon are just a little too good at meeting their own user's wants and needs for Pentax to steal a bunch of users from them...
06-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But isn't this the point? How big is the market for those who 'want' a full frame Pentax camera. I just don't know. The higher the cost, the tougher the sell even if people want something. Pentax has to meet certain specs (roughly D800 level) and certain pricing (2500 dollars?) in order to be able to sell any. In particular, they would need to draw people from Nikon and Canon camps in order to make a go of it. If the only benefit of Pentax full frame is that it is a little smaller than equivalent Nikon/Canon options, I wonder how it would sell. Understanding that the biggest benefit from a Pentaxian's standpoint (the k mount) is not important to those who don't already own k mount glass.

Nikon and Canon are just a little too good at meeting their own user's wants and needs for Pentax to steal a bunch of users from them...
there are new users coming to the market every day in DSLR, having the upgrade path is important. we may not steal many users from canikon's existing base, but we can divert the new users, and of course some ex pentaxians may return as well. No FF and you continue to bleed users who want to go that route, and limit the incoming user base as well (i realise new users aren't liely to go FF - though some will - but many will look at the whole line and see how it suits them with potential future needs as well - lots of people by canon because they envision themselves turning pro, only to stay as a beginner once they move on to the next thing)

06-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #339
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there are new users coming to the market every day in DSLR, having the upgrade path is important.
Exactly.... I'm not sure I will want an FF, but I'd sure like to know it's there. If someone comes tomorrow and says we want you to do some shots for us but we need 24 Mp, I have to start over, if I want to do it with my own gear. But for me the Mp issue is more likely to come up than the FF - non-FF issue. It's always reassuring to know you have a feasible upgrade path if you need it. The people who like my work, just like my work. They don't even ask FF or APS-c. Canon and Nikon types staring at my gear do.

Last edited by normhead; 06-28-2012 at 11:40 AM.
06-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote

Nikon and Canon are just a little too good at meeting their own user's wants and needs for Pentax to steal a bunch of users from them...
Well yes and no, they have a lot of camera options, but I would say none of their affordable ones are as good as the k-5. I mean Canon doesn't believe you need weather sealing unless you have $2500 to spend, and the k5 beat the 7d, and the d7000 in all the tests I read and it's cheaper than either of them - with a magnesium body and weather sealing. What Pentax has been able to do is come to the market with a better product for less money, although at a later date than the big boys. The biggest problem I see for Pentax is their lack of available lenses for full frame, especially at the long end, but if they can put out a ff at say $2000-2500 that would be a huge draw for users that can not justify $4500-6000 for the canon or Nikon offering.
Pentax could set themselves up with the advantage in the future, by offering say 4 different camera bodies with the top one being FF even if cost 3000, image stabilization in camera makes for a cheaper line of lenses than the competition, and if the technology is competitive what new user wouldn't look at pentax?

Last edited by Williunck; 06-28-2012 at 11:33 AM.
06-28-2012, 11:18 AM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You must be joking. At F:1.4 you get so thin DOF on an APS camera with an 85mm lens that you can hardly get the whole face in focus.
I know professional protrait photographers. Their fastest lens is F:2.8....
I agree. Most pros I know rarely pull out the shallow DOF glass and even less shoot anything wide open if they can help it.

Truth is, value-priced APS-C DSLR's saved the floundering ILC market, and they did so with most lenses offering a deeper DOF due to sensor size. SLR sales were stalled for almost 15 years from the late 1980's. APS-C generated DOF has not crippled sales in any meaningful way.
06-28-2012, 12:33 PM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I agree. Most pros I know rarely pull out the shallow DOF glass and even less shoot anything wide open if they can help it.

Truth is, value-priced APS-C DSLR's saved the floundering ILC market, and they did so with most lenses offering a deeper DOF due to sensor size. SLR sales were stalled for almost 15 years from the late 1980's. APS-C generated DOF has not crippled sales in any meaningful way.
No, but that was a consequence of sensor fab economics, wafer costs and yield rates, not because of some willful choice about aps-c's 'good enough' DOF control or noise performance.

If a FF sensor could have been manufactured in volume for only 3x the cost vs. 20x the cost (now it's < 10x) of an aps-c sensor back in 2005, you'd see FF everywhere today. Aps-c was a necessary choice, a more-than-acceptable sacrifice that could keep the existing mounts active and revenue-generators for the camera companies.

Last edited by jsherman999; 06-28-2012 at 01:00 PM.
06-28-2012, 12:49 PM   #343
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@normhead

On F1.4 lenses on APS-C for shallow DOF, I would love to use cheap f2.8 zooms for shallow DOF on FF too. F1.4 lenses are big and unwieldy... Not to mention normally not optimised for APS-C.

Also jay's samples with the downsampled 36mp vs 12mp images clearly shows the superiority of the D800 vs D700.
06-28-2012, 12:54 PM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
No, but that was a consequence of sensor fab economics, wafer costs and yield rates, not because of some willful choice about aps-c's 'good enough' DOF control..

It has nothing to do with DOF as it is mostly irelevant. You also misuse the word DOF control; thinner DOF is not the same as more control over DOF.
The smaller formats have numerous advantages, not at least price; those are the driving force behind the incredible increase of (D)SLR sales...
06-28-2012, 01:10 PM   #345
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lol, new thread heading - "FF rumor arguments, and DOF arguments" it's like I'm at home chatting with my wife and daughter...everything you say gets answered with "no it isn't" "thats not right" or "I'm not talking to you anymore"

Last edited by Williunck; 06-28-2012 at 01:20 PM.
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