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07-01-2012, 08:30 PM - 2 Likes   #391
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
It's hard enough for Canon & Nikon to put out a new FF DSLR every 3 years, so Pentax will never be able to afford the risk and the R&D. People will not drop their D800/5d MKiii and all their top glass to switch to Pentax no matter how cheap Ricoh could produce them.
There will come a time when Pentax can't afford not to supply users with a FF. That time is coming quickly, as evidenced by the opposite of your next point. People may not drop their D800/5D, but they're dropping their K-5 for a D800/5D. Those are the users Pentax can't ignore, because those are the ones that have the money/interest in spending money on nice lenses, etc. to upgrade. That brings this back to the beginning, Pentax can't afford to continue to hold out on a FF because they're losing customers. Yes, they have a niche market for fun, outdoor cameras, but as price continues to drop for bigger cameras more people will move that direction. It's a vicious cycle. Hopefully Pentax learned from their late entry into digital.

07-01-2012, 08:39 PM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
They were about to release one many years ago, but came out blessed not to release it yet due to problems with the Philips sensor that brought down Contax. R&D will just have to continue from there, not from scratch. And based from interviews with Kitazawa it seems "never ever" is not as solid a statement. They're just wary of how, when and what they will do for an FF product.
thats what i thought initially until someone reminded me that the contax n made beautiful pictures. it doesn't have the megapixels nor the high iso performance but its low iso IQ was beautiful.

flikr has lots of those hosted in its contax n digital user group
07-02-2012, 07:07 AM   #393
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QuoteOriginally posted by builttospill Quote
There will come a time when Pentax can't afford not to supply users with a FF. That time is coming quickly, as evidenced by the opposite of your next point. People may not drop their D800/5D, but they're dropping their K-5 for a D800/5D. Those are the users Pentax can't ignore, because those are the ones that have the money/interest in spending money on nice lenses, etc. to upgrade. That brings this back to the beginning, Pentax can't afford to continue to hold out on a FF because they're losing customers. Yes, they have a niche market for fun, outdoor cameras, but as price continues to drop for bigger cameras more people will move that direction. It's a vicious cycle. Hopefully Pentax learned from their late entry into digital.

Well, some people want FF and others don't. You could just as well argue that Nikon and Canon are loosing customers to Pentax by not offering MF digital. In fact, it seems like most 645D users are exactly people switching from Canon and Nikon. I know about several professional outdoor photographers that have switched to Pentax because they seem to the manufacturer who takes APS most seriously. You can't please them all....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-02-2012 at 09:55 AM.
07-02-2012, 09:27 AM   #394
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I'm late to the digital camera scene and ask these questions:

1) Why do we need an FF?

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?

3) Is FF better?

07-02-2012, 09:32 AM   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote
I'm late to the digital camera scene and ask these questions:

1) Why do we need an FF?

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?

3) Is FF better?
1) You don't.
2) There is no such thing as crop. People keep calculating back to some form that is not that old. Ancient Greeks never heard of this format.
3) It's different! Better is already a subjective thing.



P.S. I want a FF, please
07-02-2012, 09:49 AM   #396
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How different?
07-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?
Well, every sensor is cropped sensor unless it is endlessly large....
07-02-2012, 10:31 AM   #398
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Well, for sure we can say that every sensor is a crop of the silica wafer disk from which they are cut.

07-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote
I'm late to the digital camera scene and ask these questions:

1) Why do we need an FF?

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?

3) Is FF better?
1) I don't.
2) Canon, to be able to sell digital reflex to many costumer instead of few.
3) It costs many times much, so it must be. At least for the firms.
07-02-2012, 11:34 AM   #400
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote
I'm late to the digital camera scene and ask these questions:

1) Why do we need an FF?

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?

3) Is FF better?
1. Why do we need a 31 ltd? or a fish eye or even a DSLR for that matter? it all comes down to your choice of gear to match what you hope to achieve with the images you create. The look of an image shot with a crop sensor + 35mm lens is not the same as the look shot with a FF sensor and a 50mm lens. You cannot get the same shallow depth of field with the crop sensor as you can with the FF sensor. To some people this is everything.

2. FF sensors used to be much more expensive than crop sensors. So FF cameras were not priced at a point that most consumers could or would buy. Crop sensors brought the price down. If FF sensors cost the same to make as crop sensors, I don't think we would have ever seen crop sensor cameras. FF sensors are still more expensive, but the gap is closing.

3. FF will have about 1 stop better light gathering then APS-C for a given sensor tech. FF cameras have larger viewfinders. FF cameras can produce shallower depths of field. APS-C can be less expensive, sometimes smaller bodies, produce extra "reach"* that birders like.

----------------------
*restrain yourself. I don't need a lesson on on the physics of focal length, field of view, and aperture equivalences. "reach" is just a simple term to help show the difference between systems.
07-02-2012, 12:24 PM   #401
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
*restrain yourself. I don't need a lesson on on the physics of focal length, field of view, and aperture equivalences. "reach" is just a simple term to help show the difference between systems.
BTDT once too often.
07-02-2012, 01:51 PM   #402
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Saying dMF is drawing FF photographers away from FF the same way FF is drawing APS-C users away from cropped sensors is inaccurate. dMF is a much more specialised format and at a price point way higher than FF it cannot be compared. The appropriate advantage Pentax have in bringing in their own FF is in maximising the full potential of their classic FA Limiteds. Little else matters to me.
07-02-2012, 03:33 PM   #403
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Quite right Ash. The fact that Pentax makes the 645d is irrelevant to me as I cannot use my K lenses on it. If you are upgrading to the 645d it doesn't matter whether you shoot Pentax or Canikon. A FF body would make their K mount system more complete, whereas the 645d sits in a whole different area of imaging.
07-02-2012, 04:18 PM   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by tabl10s Quote
I'm late to the digital camera scene and ask these questions:

1) Why do we need an FF?

2) Whose idea was it to come out with crop sensor?

3) Is FF better?
There is a relevant post at this link:

Falk Lumo: The full frame mystery revisited

My apologies if this link was mentioned before in the thread (I only looked at the first and last pages).
07-02-2012, 04:42 PM   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by yorik Quote
There is a relevant post at this link:

Falk Lumo: The full frame mystery revisited

My apologies if this link was mentioned before in the thread (I only looked at the first and last pages).
Unfortunately, much of this stuff is like the joke about those in a helicopter lost in the fog near the Microsoft building. They don't know where they are due to the fog so they put out a sign for the people in the building saying "where are we?". The reply from the MIcrosoft people is; "you are in a helicopter". Correct information but useless.
This article treat (among other things) cameras as DOF measuring devices (only wide open). I don't know anyone who use cameras this way. Nor do I know why different formats should have similar DOF characteristics in the first place when it is the format size to begin with that makes DOF characteristics different!
FF is not near any sweetspot at all as the sweetspot for DSLR sales is below $1000 and high quality lenses for FF are often beyond what the general consumer is willing to pay (particularly if you want that VERY thin DOF). Sweetspot is proven by the sales; APS has 95% of the market. Who cares about cost per "image quality particle" (my invention)?
It is not relevant to compare digital sensors to computer processors; the former do not follow Morres law and while extra computer power is constantly needed to keep up with newer software, image quality beyong a certain limit is certainly optional and of little interest unless you print very large.

However, FF, particularly the D800, is great compromise if you want better image quality than what APS can provide but can't afford or don't want MF digital and don't mind spending the bucks....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-02-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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