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07-05-2012, 05:30 AM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
MX VF is significantly larger
MX VF is one of the best from any camera, though still only 95% coverage, but with great magnification. Funnily enough the nicest finders came on the smallest camera bodies the OM2n has a killer finder as well.

07-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
MX VF is significantly larger
Thanks, I should check my MX out. Haven't shot film for several years

Anyway it's a shame the viewfinder quality rapidly went downhill when AF arrived. AF is great in itself but it should not have impacted the viewfinders. Or was it due to the plethora of information now visible in the viewfinder?
07-05-2012, 07:00 AM   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Thanks, I should check my MX out. Haven't shot film for several years

Anyway it's a shame the viewfinder quality rapidly went downhill when AF arrived. AF is great in itself but it should not have impacted the viewfinders. Or was it due to the plethora of information now visible in the viewfinder?
I would think manufacturers decided to save some money on VF because no-one would use them with AF available. At least there is a trend towards better (I like that Pentax has stated there is no reason for every VF not to be 100%, now we need them to say there is no reason for it not to be 1.0x magnification
07-05-2012, 02:58 PM   #469
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Thanks, I should check my MX out. Haven't shot film for several years
Yeah and put a UWA lens before you look through the VF.
You won't dare looking into your DSLR VF again

07-05-2012, 07:56 PM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yeah and put a UWA lens before you look through the VF. You won't dare looking into your DSLR VF again
The widest I could get on my K2 with the lenses I have is 28mm... looking through the VF feels like looking through a window! And the MX's VF is bigger than the K2... so... yeah. I suddenly felt pitiful of my K-x's VF.
07-05-2012, 09:49 PM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Thanks, I should check my MX out. Haven't shot film for several years

Anyway it's a shame the viewfinder quality rapidly went downhill when AF arrived. AF is great in itself but it should not have impacted the viewfinders. Or was it due to the plethora of information now visible in the viewfinder?
Well, the marketing types might press for shaving costs by saying that you don't really need that great of a viewfinder since we do the focusing for you, but that certainly is not a photographer-centric viewpoint. Maybe that's part of the reason.

But I always thought the biggest reason was that a significant fraction of the light was diverted to the AF sensor, leaving the choice between a smaller viewfinder that is bright enough and a film SLR camera-sized viewfinder that is way too dim.
07-06-2012, 12:04 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
But I always thought the biggest reason was that a significant fraction of the light was diverted to the AF sensor, leaving the choice between a smaller viewfinder that is bright enough and a film SLR camera-sized viewfinder that is way too dim.
That sounds about right. AF does nothing for composition and framing, which should be a priority for the VF. For a landscaper, evf really does make a lot of sense because a very large (and bright) EVF can be provided. Doesn't help the sports shooters of course.
Often it probably comes down to the camera designer who decides what to include and how large.
07-06-2012, 03:13 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
a significant fraction of the light was diverted to the AF sensor
That doesn't sound right. Look at the AF sensor - it's tiny. It's also on the bottom of the mirror-box and not on the same light path as the mirror and viewfinder.

Plus some Pentax film cameras had AF sensors, yet still had big bright viewfinders...

07-06-2012, 04:14 AM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Not sure whether you have noticed already; this article was referenced by sonyalpharumors.com.
07-06-2012, 05:42 AM   #475
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
That doesn't sound right. Look at the AF sensor - it's tiny. It's also on the bottom of the mirror-box and not on the same light path as the mirror and viewfinder.
Exactly why it is darker - Not all the light reaches the viewfinder since a portion of the light is diverted down to the AF module
07-06-2012, 05:42 AM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not sure whether you have noticed already; this article was referenced by sonyalpharumors.com.
LOL, reading the comments there is like reading a FF thread here
07-06-2012, 06:40 AM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
That doesn't sound right. Look at the AF sensor - it's tiny. It's also on the bottom of the mirror-box and not on the same light path as the mirror and viewfinder.

Plus some Pentax film cameras had AF sensors, yet still had big bright viewfinders...
Light (A) comes in through lens. Some (B) of it is reflected up to viewfinder by semi-transparent mirror. Of the light passing through the semi-transparent mirror (C), some (D) is reflected by a secondary mirror to the AF sensor.

For an autofocus SLR, A = B + C (roughly, there are no doubt minor losses elsewhere).

For non-autofocus SLR, A = B (since it doesn't use a semi-transparent mirror).

It would be interesting to know the relative values of A, B, C, and D. Also, is the main mirror semi-transparent only in the center where the secondary AF mirror sits, or is it uniformly semi-transparent? If the B/A ratio is close to 1, my thesis of why AF DSLRs have smaller/dimmer viewfinders has no merit. If the ratio is << 1, its a possible explanation.

Last edited by cfraz; 07-06-2012 at 06:58 AM. Reason: Added last 2 sentences
07-06-2012, 07:03 AM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Light (A) comes in through lens. Some (B) of it is reflected up to viewfinder by semi-transparent mirror. Of the light passing through the semi-transparent mirror (C), some (D) is reflected by a secondary mirror to the AF sensor.

For an autofocus SLR, A = B + C (roughly, there are no doubt minor losses elsewhere).

For non-autofocus SLR, A = B (since it doesn't use a semi-transparent mirror).

It would be interesting to know the relative values of A, B, C, and D. Also, is the main mirror semi-transparent only in the center where the secondary AF mirror sits, or is it uniformly semi-transparent? If the B/A ratio is close to 1, my thesis of why AF DSLRs have smaller/dimmer viewfinders has no merit. If the ratio is << 1, its a possible explanation.
Good points, Of course another part of the equation is you never saw crappy pentamirror on Manual Focus, it came in the AF age and made things worse again. I had film cameras with both and the Pentamirror ones we as crappy as they are now (though somewhat larger VF of course)
07-06-2012, 07:03 AM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
why AF DSLRs have smaller/dimmer viewfinders
Remember, there are also film SLR's with AF systems and yet they have big bright viewfinders. Ditto FF DSLR's.

So I am not sold yet on the idea that the AF system makes a big contribution to the issue of small, dim APS-C viewfinders.

I suspect the area of semi-transparency in the main mirror is also quite modest since it doesn't need to be large.
07-06-2012, 08:30 AM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Remember, there are also film SLR's with AF systems and yet they have big bright viewfinders. Ditto FF DSLR's.

So I am not sold yet on the idea that the AF system makes a big contribution to the issue of small, dim APS-C viewfinders.

I suspect the area of semi-transparency in the main mirror is also quite modest since it doesn't need to be large.
True. I have to admit the 2 times factor in amount of light for FF /APSC dominates any effect of the B/A ratio. Nevetheless, the best manual focus SLRs had bigger, brighter viewfinders than the best FF DSLRs now have, if recent posts are correct.
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