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08-28-2012, 01:24 PM   #901
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
Not to the extent that it will keep the already small market share the same or make it bigger. FF will soon be the main selling point instead of todays megapxels and high iso.
How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall.....
BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors. It might even cost more than some FF bodies but does those who want such an Olympus care?


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-28-2012 at 01:31 PM.
08-28-2012, 01:31 PM   #902
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall.....
BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors...
They must have read your posts. :-)
08-28-2012, 01:56 PM   #903
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall.....
BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors. It might even cost more than some FF bodies but does those who want such an Olympus care?
I explain it with the fact that people always tend to want the best. Or at least buy into a system that offers a top of the line product.

Regarding Oly? Maybe they estimate that there is enough users of the higher end 4/3 glass out there to make a profit. Hardly an effort to make new customers buy into the pretty much dead 4/3 system.
08-28-2012, 01:59 PM   #904
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Please don't follow those threats. I'll be a Pentaxian until I die. I don't have any reason to change, I work within the limitations of my gear. Besides.. Nikon and Canon require too much tinkering in PP To get the colors and contrast Pentax gives you. I had a D800 for a day, I liked it sure, but it made me cherish my K5 even more!
Tell me more!
I'm about to pull the trigger on a D800 kit.

08-28-2012, 02:13 PM - 3 Likes   #905
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Sometimes I like analogies, even when they're less than perfect.

Listening to people argue against Pentax coming out with a full frame camera is like listening to someone argue that Dodge should only make 2x4 pickups with V6 engines and leave the 4x4 V8 business to Ford and Chevy. The argument seems to go that a V6 engine (APS-C sensor) can handle a heavy enough load and a 2x4 drivetrain (APS-C lenses, etc.) does well enough on most terrain so nobody really needs the 2 extra cylinders of the V8 (FF sensor) or 4x4 drivetrain (FF lenses, etc.), never mind that they use the same chassis (mount). Well, some people like to drive (shoot) off road (fast wide angle) and haul (shoot) very heavy payloads (low light, high ISO). These same people might also like the higher torque (greater light collection) and stickier traction (narrower DOF) offered by the 4x4 V8 (FF system). I understand that implementing the bigger engine and four wheel drivetrain isn't entirely cakewalk; Dodge would have to design the differentials (shake reduction), transfer case (mirror/pentaprism), beefed up exhaust system (buffer/processor), and whatnot to make it all work, but I think those are entirely doable and certainly worthwhile for Dodge to be able to regain and maintain its serious truck maker image, performance, and appeal. I like my Dodge 2x4 V6 truck, as a matter of fact I like it a lot, but one day I hope to be able to park a 4x4 V8 next to it because I would really like to have the additional capability that it offers for whenever the time calls or just if I get the hankering. And since I've been driving around with those piss on Chevy and piss on Ford stickers, I'd feel awfully silly going and buying either one of those two pickups.

Last edited by TomTextura; 08-28-2012 at 02:27 PM.
08-28-2012, 02:37 PM   #906
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote
Sometimes I like analogies, even when they're less than perfect.

Listening to people argue against Pentax coming out with a full frame camera is like listening to someone argue that Dodge should only make 2x4 pickups with V6 engines and leave the 4x4 V8 business to Ford and Chevy. The argument seems to go that a V6 engine (APS-C sensor) can handle a heavy enough load and a 2x4 drivetrain (APS-C lenses, etc.) does well enough on most terrain so nobody really needs the 2 extra cylinders of the V8 (FF sensor) or 4x4 drivetrain (FF lenses, etc.), never mind that they use the same chassis (mount). .

The question is not whether they should make one but whether they can sell one considering their marketshare, market demographics and line-up (need four formats + associated lenses; can they pull that off?). Incidentally, Ford or GM cannot sell V8's in Europe and hardly any V6's for that matter. Nobody buy's them. In fact, they discontinued their large cars cause nobody bought them. Ford is now quite sucessful selling cars in the entry to mid market. If they had made huge saloons and SUV's in Europe they would have been bankrupt by now.
Pentax does indeed have products and buyers for products beyond Nikon and Canon high-end. The question is: how many FF camera and lenses can Pentax sell and would it be better to use the money spent on developing FF camera and lenses on strenghtening existing line-ups? Thats the question....

BTW Those who do sell V8's in Europe are increasingly replacing them with V6's, like Audi for instance. Better technology makes bigger engines and bigger sensors less relevant from a performance point of view....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-28-2012 at 03:06 PM.
08-28-2012, 02:50 PM   #907
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
how many FF camera and lenses can Pentax sell
I can't answer that question in any definite manner, obviously, but my guess is that they will be able to sell enough to make the risk/investment worthwhile. If it can compete alongside the D800 IQ-wise then the positive press alone will be worth a fortune for the Pentax brand, even if it is only sold in small numbers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
would it be better to use the money spent on developing FF camera and lenses on strenghtening existing line-ups?
These questions, on the other hand, are quite easy to answer. FF lenses would strengthen the Pentax lens lineup. A FF camera would strengthen the Pentax user base. Plain. And. Simple.
08-28-2012, 03:24 PM   #908
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote

These questions, on the other hand, are quite easy to answer. FF lenses would strengthen the Pentax lens lineup. A FF camera would strengthen the Pentax user base. Plain. And. Simple.

I cannot see how they could pull that off. How could they excel in both the "Q Format", APS, FF and 645? Not to mention getting enough lenses in the market to make all the users of these system happy. Isn't there a danger that they end up being spread too thinly being me too in all areas?
I would like to see an FF Pentax but I doubt Pentax have the volume and the users population to make it viable. Not even Nikon and Canon have four interchangeable lens formats to support and they have 80%+ of the DSLR market....

08-28-2012, 03:39 PM   #909
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
How could they excel in both the "Q Format", APS, FF and 645?
I'm actually only considering the K-mount. I don't have any investment in the other formats, nor do I plan to. If the problem is a matter of being stretched too thin, then if it were up to me, the Q would be the first to go. Maybe I'm being a snob, but it's hard to take lenses seriously when they don't have focal lengths and two out of five of their names consist of the word "toy".
08-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #910
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall
You keep saying that, and I keep waiting for my M 4/3 25mm f/0.7. Actually, come to think of it, I'd prefer a 9mm f/0.25 Q lens, it should be much cheaper than the $300 FA 50mm.
08-28-2012, 04:15 PM   #911
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Pertinent for the discussion:

On Camera Gear: Assumptions Can Get You in Trouble! | oopoomoo
08-28-2012, 04:15 PM   #912
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The question is not whether they should make one but whether they can sell one considering their marketshare, market demographics and line-up (need four formats + associated lenses; can they pull that off?). Incidentally, Ford or GM cannot sell V8's in Europe and hardly any V6's for that matter. Nobody buy's them. In fact, they discontinued their large cars cause nobody bought them. Ford is now quite sucessful selling cars in the entry to mid market. If they had made huge saloons and SUV's in Europe they would have been bankrupt by now.
Pentax does indeed have products and buyers for products beyond Nikon and Canon high-end. The question is: how many FF camera and lenses can Pentax sell and would it be better to use the money spent on developing FF camera and lenses on strenghtening existing line-ups? Thats the question....

BTW Those who do sell V8's in Europe are increasingly replacing them with V6's, like Audi for instance. Better technology makes bigger engines and bigger sensors less relevant from a performance point of view....
Yes, folks forget that in Europe high gas prices mean you have to be very wealthy to afford a ride with a big engine just as high taxes and product prices mean you have to be pretty darn wealthy to afford high-end camera equipment. I can just about afford a ride with a big engine but that's 'cos it's only got two wheels.

What I'll throw into the mix is the development of the K-01 idea, i.e. APS-C mirrorless. I am having great success with my copy and the limited lenses, and so if Pentax bring out a subsequent version with, perhaps, better AF performance and mods like a tilt screen, I would be in the market. Since this may well represent the future of the solid middle of cameras for those who do not want a full-on DSLR it would be crazy (imho) of Pentax not to keep their toe in the water and their R&D primed up. Given the 500 ton gorillas in the FF space, they could easily do better with one of these than with an FF costing 3-5 times the price and only a relatively tiny number of buyers.
08-28-2012, 04:26 PM   #913
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote

Pro guy owns 1DS Mk III, takes some pics with large DOF with less expensive cameras.


Got it.


Listen, I love some of my P&S pics, taken in good light, where infinite DOF was appropriate, too. Doesn't mean I'm not going to pony up $2-3k when a camera that can use less expensive lenses and does better at high ISO comes out.
08-28-2012, 04:39 PM   #914
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Pro guy owns 1DS Mk III, takes some pics with large DOF with less expensive cameras.


Got it.
.
You didn't. The article has nothing to do with DOF....
08-28-2012, 05:06 PM   #915
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You didn't. The article has nothing to do with DOF....
Don't worry, you just missed the pics at the bottom of the article.

Wonder why that guy doesn't sell his depreciating 1DS III and pocket the cash.
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