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08-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #916
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pertinent for the discussion: On Camera Gear: Assumptions Can Get You in Trouble! | oopoomoo
I agree with the assertion that you can't judge a photographer's skills by their gear. However, this article doesn't make a very strong case as the icy beach/mountain scape pic stood out clear as day as having higher IQ than the other example pics. It was the only one from a DSLR and not a P&S.

08-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #917
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Please don't follow those threats. I'll be a Pentaxian until I die. I don't have any reason to change, I work within the limitations of my gear. Besides.. Nikon and Canon require too much tinkering in PP To get the colors and contrast Pentax gives you. I had a D800 for a day, I liked it sure, but it made me cherish my K5 even more!
Nikon images, especially RAW images tend to be flat, low contrast, and not very saturated.

I deal with this in Lightroom by using camera profiles on import. It does not take any time. It is easy. I can make my Nikon images look exactly like my Pentax images.

I would expect anyone who is shooting a D800 will be using a profile that either they made, or they downloaded from Nikon.
08-28-2012, 05:32 PM   #918
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Tell me more!
I'm about to pull the trigger on a D800 kit.
its a brilliant camera, and if you can afford it and find the need for it, then I'd say don't hesitate. The image quality and rendering is top notch, no question about that. I thought it was fun to use, and surprisingly light. But I decided after a using it for 2 days on a rental that I really don't need to buy a D800 and another kit of lenses to be happy. Pentax makes an incredible product, and a D800 is not going to make me a better photographer, so I'm just going to still with my K mount, which means more money for lenses, K mount bodies, etc.etc. instead of either taking a huge loss on selling Pentax gear or funding two systems.

The big thing I found was that colors seemed to be more "flat" and not as vivid. Contrast was good, but not compared to what I could get from a FA77 and my K5 for example.

As for processing those huge files, well it takes a while to transfer over USB 2.0, but my Dell XPS15 was handling the image files without slow down. I would say without breaking a sweat, but this laptop runs hot when your sitting outside in the middle of winter... so whatever (hey Dell? Ever hear of COOLING and not using the aluminium case as a giant heatsink? ok, just checking)
08-28-2012, 05:35 PM - 1 Like   #919
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I cannot see how they could pull that off. How could they excel in both the "Q Format", APS, FF and 645? Not to mention getting enough lenses in the market to make all the users of these system happy. Isn't there a danger that they end up being spread too thinly being me too in all areas?
I would like to see an FF Pentax but I doubt Pentax have the volume and the users population to make it viable. Not even Nikon and Canon have four interchangeable lens formats to support and they have 80%+ of the DSLR market....
Pal i appreciate you think apsc is all they need. Have you worked in retail? Specifically retail akin to the camera market? I did 25 years
I can tell you it doesn't matter if apsc is good enough if canikon and sony all release sub $2000 FF (a price that will go down over the next 2 yeas as well)
just like consumers bought into the mp race they will buy into the FF race. the easy route for salespeople is oh you need a ff if you want the best. salespeople are inherently lazy and will take the easy way and close the deal. ignoring ff and a changing market will doom pentax to declining share. just the way it iis and I imagine Ricoh knows this and are allocating resources to address it
in general i can tell you th one thing i learned in retail is people buy what they think they need not what is best for their needs. if canikon and sony sell people on FF is the way you need to go (and with the rumoured models coming it's easy to believe they will)
People will want FF. If Pentax doesn't offer it then people won't want pentax. this applies even at the entry level where they buy apsc but think someday they will move up to the better ff
it's really pretty basic consumer psychology. No way Hoya was going there, but I doubt Ricoh will be like Hoya. they have a commitment to growth and need to do it while their core business is still a cash cow so they can build the next cash cow because the copy business is a declining one---

08-28-2012, 05:36 PM   #920
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
Nikon images, especially RAW images tend to be flat, low contrast, and not very saturated.

I deal with this in Lightroom by using camera profiles on import. It does not take any time. It is easy. I can make my Nikon images look exactly like my Pentax images.

I would expect anyone who is shooting a D800 will be using a profile that either they made, or they downloaded from Nikon.
I don't know of this function... I just edit all my raws in develop mode without delving into profiles... does it make a difference even with Pentax?
08-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #921
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
I don't know of this function... I just edit all my raws in develop mode without delving into profiles... does it make a difference even with Pentax?
Here is a link to some Lightroom profile: Lightroom 4 Camera Calibration Profile Presets

once loaded into Lightroom, you apply them during photo import. I'm not a Lightroom guru, so it might be best if you take the time to search yourself. And this can be done with any make of camera.

------------


Back to the topic of full frame, I expect this is going to be the year we see FF cameras for less money then top end APS-C cameras.
08-28-2012, 06:34 PM   #922
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You didn't. The article has nothing to do with DOF....
With all respect the article was not really relevant. Sure you can get fantastic images with a P&S or cheap DSLR, but they have limitations. Take your P&S or entry level out of situations that help to level the playing field, lets say an indoor basketball game under artificial lights.

Problems that arise:
Fast paced constantly changing direction subjects in Low light: High ISO is needed to stop motion blur, Flash is not acceptable in most situations as it distracts the player, Fast and Accurate AF is needed to get you the shots as things happen in the blink of an eye.

P&S: you might get some wide angle shots to work (maybe) but any telephoto zoom would be futile.
Cheap APS-C DSLR: Possible to work with but is still limited in what It can do.

Now note what a professional does. NBA photographer for a day - ESPN
As you will note, he uses a Nikon D3. And wait for it... Auto focus!

Jeremy Martinez NBA - Denver Nuggets Basketball
EOS 5D

Obviously there will be a few that shoot with APS-C.

My experience with AF in particular given your apparent bucking of AF, I have used slow AF, Manual Focus, and HSM. The keeper rate started with the HSM lens getting the most (even with a max aperture of F2.8 which was the slowest of the bunch). Manual Focus came in second with a higher % of infocus shots but FAR fewer shots overall as it is not fast enough for this kind of action,ie to see action about to unfold to getting focused was too slow. Finally Slow AF had the lowest success rate even with the fastest aperture of F1.8.

End of the day the photographer will use what works for them and meets their budget constraints, but making statement relating concern about AF being for incompetent amateurs is not a well thought out comment at all.

EDIT: I should also point out, Pro's also factor in getting equipment that makes their job easier. AF is one of those things


My personal opinion of how the pentax lineup should go is scrapping mirrorless and focusing on typical pentax values. A camera in the Mid level and Pro/advance enthusiast APS-C in conjunction with a mid range FF would be where I would focus my efforts.

The full frame is an "if" statement though. For me it would need:
Weather seals
Improved AF (I have used canon and it's very nice comparatively speaking)
A new flash system to compliment it.
Smaller body than your 5DIII and D800, but slightly larger than K-5
Non-EVF
5fps RAW minimum with a large buffer.
18-30MP
Dual processors
Re-release of FA lenses the FA* with Revised SDM
And get some bloomin' ADVERTISING!

Last edited by Chaos_Realm; 08-28-2012 at 07:16 PM.
08-28-2012, 06:58 PM   #923
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chaos_Realm Quote
My personal opinion of how the pentax lineup should go is scrapping mirrorless and focusing on typical pentax values. A camera in the Mid level and Pro/advance enthusiast APS-C in conjunction with a mid range FF would be where I would focus my efforts. The full frame is an "if" statement though. For me it would need: Weather seals Improved AF (I have used canon and it's very nice comparatively speaking) A new flash system to compliment it. Smaller body than your 5DIII and D800, but slightly larger than K-5 Non-EVF 5fps RAW minimum with a large buffer. 18-30MP Dual processors Re-release of FA lenses the FA* with Revised SDM And get some bloomin' ADVERTISING!
Excellent plan! You're hired!

08-28-2012, 07:10 PM   #924
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote
Excellent plan! You're hired!
haha, I don't have enough future vision LOL.

Only selfish, short term visions
08-28-2012, 07:15 PM   #925
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chaos_Realm Quote
Only selfish, short term visions
Perfect! Selfish, short term vision is the capitalist definition of business acumen, didn't you know?

Edit: Oops, I'm letting my cynicism show through a little.

Last edited by TomTextura; 08-28-2012 at 07:35 PM.
08-28-2012, 07:27 PM   #926
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Theres no camera on the marked where the AF isn't good enough for weddings.
Despite the fact that the horse is dead and we are still beating it...

That simply isn't true. I love my Pentax, but my k5 just doesn't have the same kind of accuracy with AF that certain canikons have. Sure quick shift helps, but it would just be nice to have a more robust AF system. It is like the whole ff argument...can I get by with just aps-c, sure (and just for now as there is an iq difference), but I would rather have ff.
08-28-2012, 08:37 PM   #927
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Is it unwise to use the AF assist beam from the K-5 when using it in very low light? Or is it because it is green instead of orange, that makes it not recommendable for use?
08-28-2012, 08:46 PM   #928
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote
Perfect! Selfish, short term vision is the capitalist definition of business acumen, didn't you know?

Edit: Oops, I'm letting my cynicism show through a little.
Not necessarily. Publicly held, more-or-less capitalist enterprises are often pushed into short-term results by .... wait for it .... their owners. If the owners are impatient, what can CEOs do?

We can whinge about "corporations" but we're really just talking about people: management and/or ownership.

The irony of all of this is that much/most of the common stock held in public markets is held by pension/retirement funds. These are the owners who, if anyone, should be taking a long-term view. As Pogo remarked, looking at the swamp, "We have met the enemy .....".

I need a pint ......
08-28-2012, 08:52 PM   #929
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
its a brilliant camera, and if you can afford it and find the need for it, then I'd say don't hesitate. The image quality and rendering is top notch, no question about that. I thought it was fun to use, and surprisingly light. But I decided after a using it for 2 days on a rental that I really don't need to buy a D800 and another kit of lenses to be happy. Pentax makes an incredible product, and a D800 is not going to make me a better photographer, so I'm just going to still with my K mount, which means more money for lenses, K mount bodies, etc.etc. instead of either taking a huge loss on selling Pentax gear or funding two systems.

The big thing I found was that colors seemed to be more "flat" and not as vivid. Contrast was good, but not compared to what I could get from a FA77 and my K5 for example.

As for processing those huge files, well it takes a while to transfer over USB 2.0, but my Dell XPS15 was handling the image files without slow down. I would say without breaking a sweat, but this laptop runs hot when your sitting outside in the middle of winter... so whatever (hey Dell? Ever hear of COOLING and not using the aluminium case as a giant heatsink? ok, just checking)
Dammit!
I was hoping you'd talk me out of it.

As a RAW shooter, I don't do flat images. But... if I was doing JPG's, then I think I can see where this would be an issue.

On the file size end of things I think I'm going to give my workstation a nudge to compensate.
Perhaps a new video card and some SSD cache modules for the mass storage drives. My OS and scratch disks are already on SSD, but given the size of the D800 files, I'm thinking its unlikely that they'll end up there anyways.

As a final coping mechanisms, I'm looking at an eSATA flash card reader. Apparently these are the fastest money can buy. And then of course, we have the road kits(USB3 reader) and plenty of 32GB cards, but I doubt I'll be doing much processing on the road tbh. And finally, I can't wait to shoot HD RAW video! Which are all very exciting options to add to our working portfolio in 2013.

To me the D800 or 800E(still trying to figure that out) are genuine low cost solutions to a 645D for the studio and field.
Granted, it doesn't have the fantastic DOF of the MF sensor, but... it is so very close, that I don't think it will leave anything that can't be handled in post.

So unless Pentax brings something major to the table this Sept. all I can say is "Big ass prints, here we come!"

Last edited by JohnBee; 08-28-2012 at 11:10 PM.
08-28-2012, 10:09 PM   #930
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oh wow

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I have never met a pro who is concerned about AF regardless of what camera he uses.
Wow.

QuoteQuote:
...AF is usually a concern among the amateurs; often the incompetent ones!
Double wow!

QuoteQuote:
In fact, no pro I know even use AF!
WOWZA! So the one pro you do know who happens to like to use manual focus for his product shots or portraits or whatever just defines the industry to your satisfaction!

Got it. Makes sense actually, and explains a few things.


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