Pentax full frame rumour

**Pål Jensen** · 06-27-2012, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by richard balonglong

A lot of other photographer may be happy and contempt with APS-C sensor cameras for their photography needs, but still a lot of photographers needed and/or wanted a full frame cameras, not just because it's a bigger sensor but it's because of the ability of more control for their images.

Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF.
If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 06-27-2012 at 07:05 AM.

RonHendriks1966 · 06-27-2012, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

dead link leads to a search page Ron

Techrumors is just reposting the rumors from other sites though

I love reading them because almost all of them look like they have been mined from the threads here. not one looks to have any basis in reality

Yeah, I restored the link, there was the second http:\\ in it. They just don't have the creativity you see with people overhere, so they don't invent stuff themselfs!

eddie1960 · 06-27-2012, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Yeah, I restored the link, there was the second http:\\ in it. They just don't have the creativity you see with people overhere, so they don't invent stuff themselfs!

They sure don't seem to be Pentax oriented. on their things we'd like to see at Photokina there isn't one Pentax mention, but they have rumours of things like an Xpro2 - really, didn't the 1 just come out!!!! not likely IMO. only DSLR mentions were Sony and Nikon 24mp FF

Photokina 2012: what we'd like to see | News | TechRadar

RonHendriks1966 · 06-27-2012, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

They sure don't seem to be Pentax oriented. on their things we'd like to see at Photokina there isn't one Pentax mention, but they have rumours of things like an Xpro2 - really, didn't the 1 just come out!!!! not likely IMO. only DSLR mentions were Sony and Nikon 24mp FF

Photokina 2012: what we'd like to see | News | TechRadar

Wow, no Pentax? Not even my beloved K-11!

ihasa · 06-27-2012, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF.
If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF.

Maybe so, in theory, but of course in practise you do get less DOF control, because the cropped FOV means you either have to move away from the subject or use a wider lens, which reduces DOF. And no, DOF isn't my over-riding concern when taking pictures; but it is nice to have that subject isolation, and like many things, it's something that you miss when you don't have it!

richard balonglong · 06-27-2012, 07:49 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF.
If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF.

Yes, we get the same control over DOF with aps-c but in a tighter composition. Let's say I have an 85mm f/1.4 on my aps-c camera and I want a portrait covering from head to toe in horizontal composition, and I want the background to be really blurred out, but I have to move backwards to get the conposition. Yeah I can get the background blurred with it but not enough. But on full frame, I can get more bokeh with it with the same lens and aperture setting. Here, I went back again on using a 35mm film Pentax SLR for the purpose of achieving a shallower depth of field. I went back using a 35mm film again besause the aps-c format really doesn't satisfy my needs for my composition.

jsherman999 · 06-27-2012, 08:50 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF.
If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF.

Wrong, just... wrong. I'm surprised at your wrongness-tenacity-level, though.

jsherman999 · 06-27-2012, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by wjjstu

Honestly in the pictures of the bookshelf, it almost looks like camera shake in the second set.

That was one of six PDAF shots from the D700, and one MF and one LV-CDAF focus test shots. All with he same amount of 'blur'. It's just what you get when you compare a downsampled 36MP image to a native 12MP image. Check out this Lloyd Chambers article comparing a 24MP downsample vs 12MP native image.

.

jsherman999 · 06-27-2012, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Williunck

Oh @jshermann, that fair shot has amazing DOF for f2.8... and its sunny out. just saying. anyway, who would have thought photo threads about cool stuff could get people so worked up.

Honestly wish it was just seen for what it is - discussions of attributes of available (and coming) technology - and not some sort of indictment of people's choices, aps-c, FF, MFD, m-4/3, or whatever.

jsherman999 · 06-27-2012, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by pinholecam

Jay thanks for your samples, I've seen those on the other thread in the non-Pentax section.

I'm just thinking that a longer lens would have given the same DOF and more or less same FOV, but at a further focus distance of course.
That shot of the fair ride could have been done at twice the focus distance with a 50mm at f2??

You can move back with a longer lens, trying to keep the FOV the same, but then the perspective changes and you get a different shot. And in that particular case at 50mm I think I would have been standing in the ring-toss pond behind me.

Quote:

So perhaps if the user sees/composes and uses focal lengths differently between FF and APS-C, that practically they are getting the same thing?

When possible, yes, but it's not always possible to do that. And sometimes it's just not convenient. I shoot the same way with a 50mm on FF vs a 35mm on aps-c, my subjects are all usually the same distance away with both formats, especially if I'm shooting indoors. In situations like that I see the dfference quite often. In other situations, you may have a lot of leeway with distance to subject, several lenses to try, etc, and you could recreate anything as long as perspective doesn't matter to the shot.

Quote:

This can be a reason why some folks see the APS-C/FF DOF argument as no consequence, while others do. (ie. they worked around it somewhat)

Yes.

.

Raffwal · 06-27-2012, 09:21 AM

Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner.

jsherman999 · 06-27-2012, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Raffwal

Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner.

That particular techradar rumour is honestly a full-circle thing - I don't know where it actually started, but it's the same ingredients, resold.

(Actually I half wonder if Ogl isn't the genesis of all Pentax rumours in the Western fora/press

)

RonHendriks1966 · 06-27-2012, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Raffwal

Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner.

Too late, I took that one

ElJamoquio · 06-27-2012, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF.
If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF.

The data from DxO on the D800 and the D7000 shows that equivalency is quite true.

**maxfield_photo** · 06-27-2012, 09:54 AM - **1 Like**

NEWS FLASH!

In Tokyo today, poor internet journalism caused officials from the Pentax Ricoh Imaging Corporation to mistakenly believe that they were to be launching a new 24 MP full frame DSLR called the K-Ω. This new camera features 16-bit RAW files, an updated 71 point PDAF system, uncrippled K-mount, 1/500th of a second max sync speed, and a new innovative flash system that uses radio signals to transmit real-time TTL data, eliminating the need for a preflash.

Realizing the futility of trying to stop further internet rumors of this sort, PRIC officials decided instead to bring reality in line with the rumors and release the camera. The K-Ω will be available in stores worldwide on July 15 at a sticker price of $1299 US for the body only, or $1499 bundled as a kit with the FA 31 Ltd.

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06-27-2012, 07:00 AM	#271
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by richard balonglong A lot of other photographer may be happy and contempt with APS-C sensor cameras for their photography needs, but still a lot of photographers needed and/or wanted a full frame cameras, not just because it's a bigger sensor but it's because of the ability of more control for their images. Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF. If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF. Last edited by Pål Jensen; 06-27-2012 at 07:05 AM.

06-27-2012, 07:06 AM	#272
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by eddie1960 dead link leads to a search page Ron Techrumors is just reposting the rumors from other sites though I love reading them because almost all of them look like they have been mined from the threads here. not one looks to have any basis in reality Yeah, I restored the link, there was the second http:\\ in it. They just don't have the creativity you see with people overhere, so they don't invent stuff themselfs!

06-27-2012, 07:19 AM	#273
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Yeah, I restored the link, there was the second http:\\ in it. They just don't have the creativity you see with people overhere, so they don't invent stuff themselfs! They sure don't seem to be Pentax oriented. on their things we'd like to see at Photokina there isn't one Pentax mention, but they have rumours of things like an Xpro2 - really, didn't the 1 just come out!!!! not likely IMO. only DSLR mentions were Sony and Nikon 24mp FF Photokina 2012: what we'd like to see \| News \| TechRadar

06-27-2012, 07:25 AM	#274
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by eddie1960 They sure don't seem to be Pentax oriented. on their things we'd like to see at Photokina there isn't one Pentax mention, but they have rumours of things like an Xpro2 - really, didn't the 1 just come out!!!! not likely IMO. only DSLR mentions were Sony and Nikon 24mp FF Photokina 2012: what we'd like to see \| News \| TechRadar Wow, no Pentax? Not even my beloved K-11!

06-27-2012, 07:35 AM	#275
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF. If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF. Maybe so, in theory, but of course in practise you do get less DOF control, because the cropped FOV means you either have to move away from the subject or use a wider lens, which reduces DOF. And no, DOF isn't my over-riding concern when taking pictures; but it is nice to have that subject isolation, and like many things, it's something that you miss when you don't have it!

06-27-2012, 07:49 AM	#276
richard balonglong Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Baguio City, Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 350	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF. If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF. Yes, we get the same control over DOF with aps-c but in a tighter composition. Let's say I have an 85mm f/1.4 on my aps-c camera and I want a portrait covering from head to toe in horizontal composition, and I want the background to be really blurred out, but I have to move backwards to get the conposition. Yeah I can get the background blurred with it but not enough. But on full frame, I can get more bokeh with it with the same lens and aperture setting. Here, I went back again on using a 35mm film Pentax SLR for the purpose of achieving a shallower depth of field. I went back using a 35mm film again besause the aps-c format really doesn't satisfy my needs for my composition.

06-27-2012, 08:50 AM - 1 Like	#277
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF. If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF. Wrong, just... wrong. I'm surprised at your wrongness-tenacity-level, though.

06-27-2012, 08:55 AM	#278
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by wjjstu Honestly in the pictures of the bookshelf, it almost looks like camera shake in the second set. That was one of six PDAF shots from the D700, and one MF and one LV-CDAF focus test shots. All with he same amount of 'blur'. It's just what you get when you compare a downsampled 36MP image to a native 12MP image. Check out this Lloyd Chambers article comparing a 24MP downsample vs 12MP native image. .

06-27-2012, 08:59 AM	#279
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Williunck Oh @jshermann, that fair shot has amazing DOF for f2.8... and its sunny out. just saying. anyway, who would have thought photo threads about cool stuff could get people so worked up. Honestly wish it was just seen for what it is - discussions of attributes of available (and coming) technology - and not some sort of indictment of people's choices, aps-c, FF, MFD, m-4/3, or whatever.

06-27-2012, 09:07 AM	#280
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by pinholecam Jay thanks for your samples, I've seen those on the other thread in the non-Pentax section. I'm just thinking that a longer lens would have given the same DOF and more or less same FOV, but at a further focus distance of course. That shot of the fair ride could have been done at twice the focus distance with a 50mm at f2?? You can move back with a longer lens, trying to keep the FOV the same, but then the perspective changes and you get a different shot. And in that particular case at 50mm I think I would have been standing in the ring-toss pond behind me. Quote: So perhaps if the user sees/composes and uses focal lengths differently between FF and APS-C, that practically they are getting the same thing? When possible, yes, but it's not always possible to do that. And sometimes it's just not convenient. I shoot the same way with a 50mm on FF vs a 35mm on aps-c, my subjects are all usually the same distance away with both formats, especially if I'm shooting indoors. In situations like that I see the dfference quite often. In other situations, you may have a lot of leeway with distance to subject, several lenses to try, etc, and you could recreate anything as long as perspective doesn't matter to the shot. Quote: This can be a reason why some folks see the APS-C/FF DOF argument as no consequence, while others do. (ie. they worked around it somewhat) Yes. .

06-27-2012, 09:21 AM	#281
Raffwal Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The North Posts: 879	Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner.

06-27-2012, 09:25 AM	#282
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by Raffwal Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner. That particular techradar rumour is honestly a full-circle thing - I don't know where it actually started, but it's the same ingredients, resold. (Actually I half wonder if Ogl isn't the genesis of all Pentax rumours in the Western fora/press )

06-27-2012, 09:43 AM	#283
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Raffwal Hey, I want a personal made-up FF rumor for myself too! Then I'll spend the remaining part of the decade laughing every time it makes a full circle and comes back to daddy. While still waiting for the FF Pentax which is just around the corner. Too late, I took that one

06-27-2012, 09:53 AM	#284
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Not true. You get exactly the same control over DOF with APS as with FF. It is the DOF range that is one stop towards more DOF with APS, but the control is the same. Since 99% of all images display some DOF this is an advantage. If you use the DOF as a constant you get one stop faster shutterspeed with APS than with FF. If you use the "equivalency principle" (which is a false one but for arguments sake in this case) you get more control over DOF with APS than with FF. The data from DxO on the D800 and the D7000 shows that equivalency is quite true.

06-27-2012, 09:54 AM - 1 Like	#285
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	NEWS FLASH! In Tokyo today, poor internet journalism caused officials from the Pentax Ricoh Imaging Corporation to mistakenly believe that they were to be launching a new 24 MP full frame DSLR called the K-Ω. This new camera features 16-bit RAW files, an updated 71 point PDAF system, uncrippled K-mount, 1/500th of a second max sync speed, and a new innovative flash system that uses radio signals to transmit real-time TTL data, eliminating the need for a preflash. Realizing the futility of trying to stop further internet rumors of this sort, PRIC officials decided instead to bring reality in line with the rumors and release the camera. The K-Ω will be available in stores worldwide on July 15 at a sticker price of $1299 US for the body only, or $1499 bundled as a kit with the FA 31 Ltd.